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._ , in successful completion the policy, mu: m which his predecessors had commit- ted the House and the country. He said: “ Our proposal was this: We endeavored, in the first place, to obtain some modification of the terms. We despatched an «guilt to British Columbia, and Lord Cnrnnrvon ulti- nuuely ofl'emd bin good servlou, in order to arrive at some understaudtng with their» Vince, and we reached the Monttofi1u that we Would enueavm to "bgllén an“, vaID Luke Sup-rim tn: toe Pnclflc (been by 1890: (ha! we should expend I certain amount per annum in British Quint-shin, after, the surveys were compler and line-gt” adopted The line never ‘ was surveyid sumrzix-ritly to enable us to reach that con. lusiun till last your, and, as soon as We had internist-ion sufficient to guide us, we adopted the Burrara Inlet route, and immediately rulvertlsed for tenders for the construction or ihnt line. Tno hon. the Minister of Public Works has spoken of our departure from the former terms of the con- struction of this road. Now, what was this departure ‘? We had precisely the same pro- vision of land, and equivalent as to money ; only, instead of $30,000,000, we named $10,000 a mile, which would have mounted to $26,000,000, and two-thirds of the land was to be controlled by the Government in respect of sales and management. We also then provided that, in asking for tenders, we should invite tenderers to say upon whnt additional amount they would require a guarantee of 4 per cent. for 25 years.” The hon. gentleman also proceeded to say:â€" “ While we let our contracts between Thun- , der Bay and Selkirk, with a View to get a‘ road opened into that country, it was with the determination to adopt this method, and I ex- plained thiqu several times ,during my administration. We intended, when we had obtained full completion of the surveys, and finally adopted the route to the ocean, through British Columbia, to endeavourto place the entire work from Lake Superior westward under contractâ€"the contractors as- suming the expenditure already incurred, and allowing themselves to be charged with itas part of the $10,000 a mile to be paid to them on the contracts for the entire line. The hon. gentlemen opposite, and the whole country, are aware that we solicited tenders in England .for some months upon this ground. before hon. gentlemen opposite came into office; also that Mr. Sandford Fleming, .the Chief Engineer, was instructed, while in London, to place himself in communication with contractors and financial men, and also to obtain the assistance of Sir John Rose, who, in many things, had been the 'activc, Gllt'l‘getic and patriotic agent of the Dominion, with a View to the carrying out of this scheme." I may mention incidentally that while I entirely approve of all these efiorts, the hon. gentleman was, I think, never called upon to lay upon the table of the House any correspondence that took place between his Government and these capitalists and contractors, end which did not maul: in their obtaining a contract. ~H0n. Mr. Bunâ€"Did he ever refusex sir CHAS. TOPPERâ€"Ho never was asked anything so utterly at varianee with the first principles of government as to bring down correspondence that could be attended with no possible benefit to the country, but be extremely embarrassing to the Government in its’ operations. Hon. Mr. Bunâ€"That is the true reason. Sir Cues. Terranâ€"I donot hesitate to say that a more unfortunate precedent in my judgment could not be set than for aGovern- ment to enter into negotiations with capital- ists to ascertain how far they could be pre- pared to take up a great work and carry it to completion and then bring down the corre- spondence, which could only reflect on the character and standing of the gentlemen interested, and render gentlemen in future, in similar cases, cautious how far they would discuss negotiations with a Go? ernment which would later give publicity to those negotiations. The hon. gentleman further said :â€"-“ But I am informed that, notwithstanding all our efl'orts, we signally failed in obtaining one single ofier (there was one imperfect offer made) for the con-e struction of the railroad on those terms, which were the grant of 20,000 acres and. $10,000 cash, permile, with a guarantee of 4 per cent upon such balance as might be re- presented as necessary. No terms could be more explicit ; it would be dificult to men- tionterms more favorable, and yet the hon. gentleman seems to expect, by his speech, that the colohization scheme, with the 100,â€" 000,000 instead of the 150,000,000 acres and $30,000,000 current money, is somehow or other to succeed in getting the road built. His own remarks showed to-day that it is ut- terly useless at present for him to expect British railmiy contractors, or great financial firms to engage in any railroad enterprise in this continent. Much of this is dueto the want of confidence Vhichhc tells us is experienced in financial circles in Britain, and a great deal is due to the unwise legislation in Canada and the Provinces with respect to railway lines, and to the fact that foreign capitalists have obtained little or no return for the money they have laid out in this country. I have made up my mind long ago that it will be exceedingly difiicult for a p« pulation of 4,000,000 so to conduct finan- cial transactions connected with the build- ing of that railroad of 2,600 miles, across an unknown and almost untrodden continent, in many places extremely diflicult. I frankly say now, after my experience in ondeavoring to accomplish something in that direction that I fear we shall be incapable o accomplishing anything in that direction at prv-n‘nic '1 need not say to the Hun as that in what he said and anticipated, tn: uUu gentleman, I suppose, was sincere. I supp 156 when he made this utterance it WH‘,‘ made in all frankness. The House will reattl) understand the gratification I ex- proud to see spread over the hon. gentle- man’s countenance on learning that all that he lamented he had been unable to accom- pl ish in the ofliciai position he occupied in the House, his successors were in a position to present for the consideration of the House. I frankly concede, and in doing so 1 only do justice to the sincere, able and energetic efiorts of the hon. gentleman, that he did all that lay in his power during his term of administration to put this great work upon the foundation upon which Parliament on two separate occasions, and the people, had affirmed it should be placed, namely, thatthe Work should be done by a private company, aided by grants of land and money. But, sir, the hon. gentleman stated on another Occasion that H it would have been very easy to commence to grade the road and so keep within the terms of the Union Act. But I scorned to practise any deception in the matter.” I assume, throughout, that the hon. gentleman was acti with en- tire sincerity, that in all those state- ments made to the House as to his great desire to advance this great national work, he was giving candid utterance to hie sincere opinion to the opinion that, whether sitting olnone side of the House or the other, l.e won (1 be prepared to give an equally zea.0us and hearty support to this policy. But in 1878 there was a general election, the result being that my Bight hon. h'iend was again charged with the important duty of administering I the public af- fairs of this country, and again brougl'n face to face with this great work. 0 found ourselves then called upon to deal with a work upon which a large amount of public money had been expended, and in a ‘way that would prove utterly useloee to the ,3?“th umm measures were promptly D'CSZ'OO.” £93 _.A».â€"._._.AA._..._. ~mAuuAâ€"emaHhâ€"Inme‘pâ€"Aâ€"rfluc’m taken to 08"" “311 0131156 thiwdrk un- der construc‘ on to completion, and so sup- Plf‘mmt 3‘ u to nab It dentin for the ob- };nts for which n I- “pod. ' sures-slums. W 9 meme. wese not in a position to elect a '4 y Chan el policy, as hon. gentlemen op- posite wil but we came to Parliament to reaflnn the icy oi utilining the lands ofthe Northwest for the purpose of obtaining the contraction of that vast work. There was every reason in the world why we should adopt that policy in the first instance, and return to it afterwards. Every person knows that the development of this great territory was concerned in this gigantic undertaking, and that, irrespective of the question of the connection of British Colum- bia, the progress and prosperity of Canada were to be promoted by the construction of the Railway. We also ielt that inasmuch as those lands were, as the leader of the late Government truly stated, desert lands, not- withstanding their fertility and enormous extent, and practically as useless as it in a ioreign country, so far as Canada was con- cerned, unless they were developed, and, as it was stated their development could only be accomplished by completing this great national work, we should come beck to the House with our orig- inal policy. We were compelled to take it up as we found it, and go on with it as a Government work, and make the work upon which so much had already been ex- pended of use to the country. We asked the House to place at our disposal 100,000,000 of acres for the purpose of covering the expen- diture in connection with the railway. We felt that by that means we should obtain the means of recouping to the Treasury every dollar expended on this work. Hon. gentlemen also know that we proposed to obtain the co-operation of the Imperial Govâ€" ernment. The hon. leader of the Opposi- tion occasionally indulges in a‘ quiet sneer at the result of the efforts of this Govern- ment to interest the Imperial Government in this enterprise. Now, it is very well knownthat, armed by this House with the power of utilising 100,000,000 acres in the Northwest, if they could so secure the con- struction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, my right hon. friend the First Minister, the Minister of Finance and myself went to England in 1879. , I do not intend to lay claim to any great results from our mission as regards the railway, but I think I may claim credit for a fair measure of success that attended our eii'orts, if not dur joint eflorts, in regard to the business oi’our respective departments. We found the press of England indiiferent, if not hostile, to Can- ada. Very suddenly, however, a very striking,a very marked change took place, when Earl Beaconsfield, the Prime Minister of that day, stated openly and in public, the enormous value of the great Northwest of Canada. I do not mean to say he was entirely accurate in all his statements, but at all events he was entirely accurate in the remark that the most lively imagination could hardly over-estimate the enormous value of the great Northwest, and the invit- ing character of the field it presented to the ugriculturalists of every part or the world. From that day to this every person knows the marked and instantaneous nature of the change that took place in English public opinion, and in the amount of attention and interest concentrated in the Northwest. The people of this country owe to my right hon. friend this great, beneficial change, brought about through his personal communication with the Prime Minister of England. Hon. gentlemen know we were then obliged to confess we were not able to bring to com- pletion any great scheme for the construc- tion of the railway. I venture to say we thought we made some impression on the Imperial Government while in England. 1 think my )on. friend the leader of the Oppo- sition, who sneered- at our statement that we )1 btained the sympathy of the English .0 nment in relation to the Ca» nadian Pacific Railway, will find a strong corroboration of our assertion in the intelli- gence received to-day with regard to the ac- tion of that Government. The Colonial Office have done what they never did before: published authoratatively a document recom- mending Canada as a field for emigration. (Cheers) I do not know whether the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blake) has seen the news 10-day or not, but I am quite sure that as a patriotic Canadian he will be glad to learn that the London Times announces the Imperial Government has promised to bring down a scheme of emigration, assisted by the Canadian Government. 80 the hon. gentle- man may feel he is not quite in a position to repeat, what I am rather afraid was to him a gratifying intimation, that the present Cana- dian Government had entirely failed in their negotiatlons. Hon. Mr. Dunnâ€"Allow me to remind my hon. friend that the present Imperial Government is Mr. Gladltone’a,and the Gov- ernment with which he and his colleagues had interviews with the leeconsfleld Govern- ment. Sir Cms. Turpinâ€"My hon. friend will permit me to point out to him that he is strengthening my argument. From this very place last session, I stated that instead of this Government feeling anxious in conse- quence of the change of Government in England, we were advised and were of the belief that the sentiments of the members of the new Ministry were of the most liberal character in relation to Canada. My hon. friend will also permit me to inform him that since the advent of the Liberal Govern- ment to power the Right Hon. the Premier, my hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture and myself have been in personal communi- cation with a number of members of the present Administration, and have impressed n on their minds the importance to the Em- pre, of the Government of Great Britain‘ giving due attention to the resources t e rest Oansdlan Northwest, so} that I 0 not think my hon. friend has made 9. eat deal by his sug- gestion. I frank y confess that in 1879 the time was not ripe for snccesfully floating the scheme in connection with the hundred mil- lion aores of land, but we sowed the seed, and we kept our eyes steadily directed to such means by which the condition of Can- sda might be greatly changed in relation to the work. My hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture hes A anon or amen, and perhaps the most happy stroke of genius ever shown by any Hinister was that which he exhibited when he adopted the policy of showing the confidence the Government of Canada had in their own country, by stating that parties with means, desirous of emigra- Ing to this country, might select able and independent delegates to come here and ex- amine this country, and that the Government of Canada would pay their expenses. It would be utterly impossible to estimate the advantage which has accrued to Canada by that single act. The whole sentiment of Great Britain in relation to this country has undergone a complete change, and when We went back to England at the conclusion of the last session of Parliament, we found that Oanada occupied in the Mother Country an entirely diflerent position from that which it | ocgupled ayeerheénre. 77H6n. M}. Mackinawâ€"0n Hanlan’s ac- count. ' Sir Jmmmonnn-Lfierm m the same w n n. Sir 0mm» TuPPnnâ€"Hanlan is an agency 11111115 I_do 119$. at all despiie. THE VISIT T0 ENGLAND. Hon. Mr. Bumâ€"You goty III. Sir Chums Turnsâ€"My right hon. W says he rows in the same b'oat as we. I may say I am satisfied of this: That all the iii- terest he can excite in the sporting world fives Canada greater importance in Englandr stated a moment ago, that in 1579 hilt» ment placed at our disposal 1,000,000 acres of land and I have already intimated“ '0' were not able with that grant to arrange for any complete scheme for the rapid constqu- tion of the railway. In 1880 we again not the House, and we met it with the m policy we adopted the year before, which was to fulfil the obligations devolved upon as through the acts of our predeceslou. Although we had not propounded the policy of carrying on this work by the Government, We took up the work as we found it. We placed under contract the 127 miles of road which the leader of the late Government had announded it as his intention to build, which he had assured the people of British Columbia he intended to build, and which under the terms with Lord Carnarvon, he was bound to place under contracmWhen we met Parliament with the statement that we were going on with this work, I think we scarcely met with the amount of aid and onâ€" operation from gentlemen opposite to which we were entitled I do not wish to say my- thing that would seem harsh to any gentle- man on the other side of the House, but I really do not think the attitude which the Opposition assumed towards thll Govern- ment, when We were only carrying out the pledges which they themselves had given over their signatures as Ministers, by their votes in Parliament, and by their deolmtionl of policy in this House, in the country and to the Imperial Gov- ernment, was justifiable. As we were on] carrying out what they propos , we had a right to expect to be met in a manner different from that in which we were met by them. m LIBERAL CHANG] 0" BAII. The leader of the Opposition moved. and in making this motion' be sub- mitted a resolution directly in an- tagonism to the policy of the Government which he supported, and to his own recorded utterances on the floor of this house, that we should break faith with British Columbia and with Lord Gammon, and that We should give, I was going to say, the lie to Lord Dufierin, who steted on his honor as a men that every particle of the terms of agreement with British Columbie were‘in a. state of literal fulfilment. The result of themoving of this resolution was to place on the records of Perils-at a. vote 0t 131 to 49 that good Nth should be kept with British Columbie, but thet we owed it to Canada to take up this work and prosecute it in such a. wey u we believed was abso- lutely necessary in order to bring it within such limits as would enable us to revert to the original policy of building the road by means of at company aided by land and money; and had we not placed that section under contract in British Colum- bia, had we not vigorously prosecuted the 185 miles wanted to complete the line be- tweern‘ Lake Superior and Red _R_iver, We we met have been able to stand here. to- day aying before the House the best propo- sal for the construction of the road that has ever been made to this Parliament. (Cheers) Well, sir, I will give in conclu- sion the utterance of the hon. the leader of the late Government at the last session of Parliament. He said:â€" “ I shall not for a moment deny that we inâ€" tended to carry out the terms of the arrange- ment with Lord Carnarvon, and nothing but i the want of means would have prevented us from accomplishing that abject, an object which could not but be desirable to any one who wished to see our trade extended.” Not merely that the obligation under the Carnarvon terms, but that the interests of the country rendered it desirable that the policy should be untied out. “ la one who , looked to the desirable extension of our busi- 1 nus more. the confluent could avoid seeing ‘ that i! such â€" omen-'0- sould possibly b. obtained without too great sacrifice it would in itself be desirable.” ‘ Sir JOHN.A. MACDONALDâ€"Who said that ‘i‘ Sm CHARLES Torresâ€"The leader of the late Government at the last session of Far. liament. The hon. gentleman further said: “ Our policy was this: We believed that the Pacific Railway was undertaken as a great national highway from one end of the Do» minion to the other, and that whatever ter- mination we make of it, near Lake Nipissing, it must be placed in connection with some other lines, and we provided for paying a subsidy to some connecting lines east of Georgian Bay. Our object was to have, as speedily as possible, a railway from the waters of the Georgian Bay, to have a con- nection with the Quebec lines through the Canada Central, as a connecting medium.” ' * ' “ Our plan would form athrough line to the Ottawa Valley, notably and notoriously the shortest line to the east from our western territories. Hon. gentlemen op- posite have given up all the advantages that the Province of Quebec and the Provinces east of that would have derived from our plan, and the President of the Council is not apparently at all disposed to avoid cheering himself because he adopted this course; he deliberately injured his own Province, and now laughs at the injury he has done." The hon. gentleman will be very glad to find that the President of the Counâ€" cil, who on this side of the House invariably pressed in the strongest terms the prosecution of the eastern link with the Canadian Pacific Railway, is able now to cheer himself not only upon the attainment of the line to Georgian Bay, but on the steady prosecution of a line connecting the great provinces of Quebec and Ontario and all the eastern pro. vinces, by the shortest and most available means with the rertile territories of the Northwest. The hon. leader of the Opposi- tion hasindulged, as is his went, in a good many sneers on this subject. He taunted our Quebec friends on this side of the House with having been left out in thecold, and with having been sacrificed. I trust, sir, that now these gentlemen are in a position to receive these taunts with a good deal of equanimity, they will find the hon. gentleman as ready to consider what the interests of this great eastern section of the country are, as he was when be supposed that they had not obtained the justice which he thought they were entitled to receive at our hands. ’ The hon. leader of the late Government said he was under the impression that he had done for Quebec everything reasonable and proper, 1 per, and he was quite willing to contrast it with What hon. gentlemen opposite had done. He asserted that their plan promised well for the prospects of the great cities of the St. Lawrence. He confessed that after hon. gentlemen opposite had committed themselves to the building of this road, the late Government were bound, as their succes- sors, to give eifectto the plan if possible, and they tried their best to do so. Their modification of this plan was all in favor of parties tendering. I have stated to the House that the modifications of the plan of the hon. leader of the late Government greatly extended the consideration to be given to contractors, and he says in his own terms they were all in favor of parties tender- ing; therefore it should have produced W» ders, though it failed in this respect. -a may ._ â€" . eHemwm-varevvw- m 0031‘ or 'nm u’nnlm noun. The plan of the late Government provided for the payment of $10,000 per mile for over 2,600 miles of road. It provided more. It deedsmo mom: mighgokoalz. mmmgaw iover the Gcm‘pfzm Bay branch of 85 miles, And o_, r the Pcm‘uina branch of 85 miles as well A“ he hon. gentleman filthin fiaidzâ€" wen 'uluu nun. Sullulvxuwu .uwuu- c...“ »« This would make the total azaooopoofl to which add three millions for surveys, Accordingto the plan and the hon. gentle- hnan’s statement, it would make $29,000,000, caving $1,000,000 to be devoted to the east- lern end, to pay the greater portion of the subsidy of the Canada Central Railway lif the late Government could have ob- ‘etained offeredfil invite the hon. gentle- man‘s attention to this statement, because it clothes us, as far as he could, with his ap- proval of the dealing with this very matter. Now, sir, we have accepted an offer,â€"abetter offer than that contained in the hon. gentle- man’s proposal, as I will show the House in the most distinct and conclusive manner, and I claim from the hon. gentleman that support to which I considered he was pledged to give to this scheme. I did not suppose, e f t S C t E t t s V l E 1 l 1 when the hon. gentleman in his place as 3 leader of the Opposition, stated that if the Government would do a certain thing, would support them, that when the he would withdraw that support '15 _ read, that statement of the hon. gentler/.41» '3 who said he would scorn to use any decep- tion; Ibelieved it, and accepted it, and I hold him to it, bound (as he is by this ‘ declaration. When I have shown this ‘ House, as I will, that our termsâ€"the terms which we have laid on the table of the House, are much within the terms he pledged himself to support us in (cheers), I will claim from the hon. gentleman the fulfilment of his pledge. The hon. gentleman said the Government did not have any oflers made them. Well, sir, why did he not get any offers? .9 It was because the position of this country was such for five years as to make it impossible for hon. gentlemen to obtain any offers in that direction ; and, sir, when, under the influences to which I have adverted, the whole tone of the press of England changed, when a large body of people, the best class of emigrants that can come to this country, flowed in, alive with excitement with refer- ence to the Canadian Northwest (hear, hear and-applause), when, sir, a movement, such as never previously took place, was occupy- ing the attention of capitalists as well as emigrants in England with relation to the CanadianNorthwest, and when, under the fiscal policy propounded to this House by my hon. friend the Minister of Finance, the whole financial position of this country was changed, when commercial prosperity had again, under the influence of that change in the fiscal policy, dawned upon Canada (cheers); I say, sir, when the Government of Canada were able to present themselves to capitalists in this country or the United States or in England, and show not that year after year they had to meet Parliament with an alarming deficit, and were unable to provide for it, and were adding from year to year to the accumulating indebtedness of the counâ€" try, not for the prosecution of public works that were going to give an impetustoour industries, but merely to enable the ordinary expenditure of the country to be met,-â€"when that all this was changed, the aspect of affairs in relation to this work was changed. When, although under the previous condition of things, my hon. friend opposite could not obtain offers in response to the advertiseâ€" ment which he published all over the world, why, sir, the hon. gentleman might fairly assume that we could not obtain any offers wither, but, as I say, under a changed policy, and when the Government had successfully grappled with the most difficult portions of this great work, and shown to the capitalists of the world, under the au. thority of this House that 100,000,000 acres of land were placed at our disposal for the prosecution'Of the undertaking, that We are not afraid to go on with its construction. or afraid to show that the construction of the Canada Pacific Railway was a work which. however gigantic in its nature, however onerous an undertaking was involved in the work, or however onerous the liabilities it imposed, was capable of fulfilment; when, notwithstanding all this, we showed that We were not afraid to go forward and prove to the capitalists of the world that we ourselves had some confidence in this country and in its development, and that we were prepared to grapple with this gigantic work, the aspect of affairs was wholly changed. Well, sir, under these circumstances the Government submitted their policy to Parliament, and they were met by obstruction last session, they were met by a complete change of front on the part of the Opposition in this House and the country. The men who had for five years declared that they were prepared to construct the Canadian Pacific Railway as a public work, the men who had pledged them- selves to British Columbia. to construct it as a public work, and who had in this Home, in every way that men could, bound themselves, called a. halt in order to obstruct the Government, when_we took the only beans by which we could remove the diffi- culty which had prevented the hon. gentle- man from obtaining any offers in reply to the advertisement that he had sent all over the country. I hold the advertisement in my hand. It was published on the 29th of May, 1876, and it says that “they invite tenders to be sent in before January, 1877, under the provisions of the Canadian Pacific Railway Act, 1874, which enacts that the contractors for its construction and working shall re- ceive lands or the proceeds of lands." Mark the words “lands or the proceeds of lands.” They were not only to receive the lands, but they were to receive, if it were thought de- sirable, the proceeds of the land. l-lon. Mr. MACKENZIEâ€"The hon. gentleman is not fair in stating that. Iam surprised he should make the statement, for if he looks at the Act he will find that the arrangement. was for the Government to sell two~thirds of the lands and {been to offer the proceeds to the oontractox s. « . Sir CHARLES ’I‘UPPEnâ€"I am glad that the hon. gentleman has reminded me of it, for we leave the contractors to bear the entire cost of disposing of the lands, whilst the hon. gentleman undertook to pay the cost of disposing of two-thirds of the land, and then give the proceeds to them without any deduc- tion in the price. I am glad that he has mentioned it, because it shows how much greater than I am stating were the terms that he ofiered in this advertisement. Then it goes on to say :â€"u Or the proceeds of the land at the rate 01 20,000 acres and cash at the rate of $10,000 for each mile of railway constructed, together with interest at the rate of 4 per cent. for 25 years from the completion of the work, on any further sum which may be stipulated in the con- tract, and the Act requires parties tendering to state in their ofiers the lowest sum, if any, per mile upon which such interest will be required.” That was the tender sent out, the advertisement that was published all over the world,in Great Britain, in this coun. mu of m.1way enterprise was the wonderful 4uccess that. was published to the world as Having resulted from the syndicate who had purchased the St, Paul. Minneapolis 3: Mani- oba Railway and become the proprietors ()f {pat line I The Statements they were enabled mpublish showed not only the rapidity with try and, I presume, in the United States, and to which no response was made. I believe, under the circumstances to which I have ad- verted, that the time had come when we might deal with this matter from a. better position‘vl will frankly state to the'House that am of the causes that led to the great elmnge in the public sentiment in relation to the value of the lands in the Northwest GOING BACK ON THE RECORD. which railway vnnsirnctfon in private hands could he we. all i u, but it showed the value of the pmiiie lands in the Northwest and the extent to which they could be made valuable for the construction of such lines. It at- tracted the attention of capitalists to a de- gree that had. a veryifmarked influence un- doubtedly upon the public mind in relation to this question. I “may further frankly state to the House, because we have nothing to conceal, that when“ we decided that it was desirable for us to ask intending contractors and capitalists on what terms they would complete and take over the road of the Canada Pacific Railway, we placed our- selves in communication with all the parties whom we had any reason to suppose would have any intention to contract, for the pur- pose of getting their lowest possible ofler. As my right hon. friend has stated, there were Canadian and American capitalists made proposals for the construction of the remaining portions of the work. The Gov- j ernment proposed to complete the line from Thunder Bay to Red River; we proposed to complete the contracts that were placed in British Columbia, in the cascade of the Fraser ltiver, and to carry an the line, for it Was an absurdity for the terminus of the Canada Pa- cific Railway to be at a place where there was only a depth of three feet‘of water, however advisable it might be for a tem- porary purpose. We proposed to complete ultimately 90 miles long of ‘ a‘ "line from Emory’s Bar, to be constructed down to the tidewater at Port Moody, the harbor selected by the hon. gentlemen opposite as the best terminus for the Canadian Pacific Railway. We ate always ready and prepared to give all the credit and‘praise that we possibly can give to our friends opposite, and we evinced , 71,: 4. LL- b" v -~ I: r r . it by the adoption of the place which the hon. gentlemen in their wisdom had chosen as the terminus. Hon. LEFTIEAKnâ€"Yes, you said that it was prgmamre. _ ~ 1.. u A; .u _..... Sir Cass. TUPPEB-P-I did say that it was premature. and before acting exacth in con- formity with that, we believed the North- west should be examined further before we adopted that route. We considered all the routes, to see which in our judgment was the best, but we thought further investiga- tion should be made before finally deciding. After doing so, I found, notwithstanding some advantages in the northern route, that we were prepared to endorse the Wisdom of the hon. gentlemen as to where the port for the terminus should be. We then got proposals to complete the line from Thunder Bay to Red River, from Kamloops to Emory’s Bar, and ultimately down to Port Moody. We asked the parties upon what terms they would undertake to build the remaining por- tions of the line from Nipissing to Thunder Bay, the distance being about 650 miles. W, _ LL A a _ k . . 1,! Hon. Mr. MACKENZIEâ€"Will you place a copy of these propositions as you made them upon the table? Sir Gnu. TUPPEBâ€"Yefl, I have no objec- tion to do so, but it Will_ give the hon. gen- tleman no additional information to what Ihave already statcd as having been de- cided. We asked also tipon what terms they would undertake to complem all the line from Red River westward to Kamloops and take over and run the whole road. "1135. Mr. MACKENZIEâ€"And also the names of the partieg to whom it was made? , H La LL- LA- v- nu, 10.--.-- VV , Sir CHAS. TUPPEBâ€"I may say to the hon‘ gegflemgp that it was communicated. 17,; L_ _._k‘€n -A Hon. Mr. MAchfiiIEâ€"Not by public ad- vertisement like mine. Sir Camus TUPPnRâ€"Jt was not, and I think we could have taken no better means of defeating the object we had in View than the very course that the hon. gentleman had taken. It was enough to deter anybody from looking at us, seeing that no ofier could be obtained. We took a which has been crowned with success. By‘ planing ourselves in communication with par- ‘ ties who were likely to make any propositions. we have the pleasure now of laying before the House a proposition to which in its char- acter and details I shall invite more closely the attention oi the House in comâ€" parison with the proposal previously made I have stated to the House that the contract which is now laid upon the table, and which this resolution asks the House to adopt, secures the completion and the operation hereafter of the Canada Pacific Railway by a private company, aided by a grant of money and lends upon the most tavorable terms that have ever been submitedto this House, or that have ever been provided by any person in this country for the purpose of securing that'object. I will give the data. and the definite information for the grounds on which I base that statment. I may state that I have had a careful estimate prepared and have laid it upon the table, of the amount of money required to complete all the road now under contract and those portions of the road that are to be constructed by the Government, and it amounts in round figures to $18,099,003. _ :1 . - 1,4.“ -1 -11 “1333'. if}. BLAKEâ€"Is that inclusive of .11 that has been agent 'I -.. .n,,,n Sir Gamma Turpinâ€"It is every dollar of expenditure that will come out of the Trou- ury of Canada for the existing contracts and for the completion of the road that is to be buflt by_t_he government. , -A A_____A_ 1-1.--) Hon.’ Mr, BLAfiLAre these figures intend- ed to represent the total cost of these works, including flint ha. bgen spent? I n ,- A__~> Sir Cine. Tennâ€"Every dollar of expen- diture. It will be remembered that a year ago I made some remarks in this House, and 1 am told that some hon. gentlemen would like to have copies of the speech that I made on that occasion. I can only say that so far as the limited supply in my hands will enable me, I shall be very glad to comply‘with their wish, because I am not at all unwilling that they should read, mark learn and inwardly digest zits contents, and, hold me responsible for them. -u,u1i,,; Sir CHAS. Turinâ€"The hon. gentleman says that he has heard it before, but I have mainly oceupied the attention of the House with the more eloquent’and able statements of.the hon. gentleman opposite. I thought I had done‘ him some justice, but after that reminder I will give the House directly some further statements which he will undoubted- ly feceive with more pleasure than anything of a more original character. I may say fion.Mr.i3L£kfi;I thought I ma heard much of this before. to the House that we submitted to the 1 themto co: House the estimate of the chief engineer. It 1 world, and was published in a pamphlet which was used ? Hon. Mr. in the debate. The hon. gentleman, a short i spoiled it. time ago, repeated the words I used in regard I Sir Cam; to the character of the road, by stating that | the late Go it was a degraded road. That was literally ; unlimited r and specifically correct, for I stated to the I has always House that in the position the Government 3 to secure tl then were with this gigantic work in hand, : fic Railway obliged to deal with it as a Government ; platform,“ii work, we felt compelled, after constructing 3 might as i the road to the Red River as a first-class 50,000,000 ‘ road, which we had carried out inaccordanoe dian Pacifl with the specifications and plans of my hon. thisâ€"not r friend opposite, to carry the road across the 3 months agr prairie, of the very cheapest deson'ntion of every persc road that would answer for the business of believe (on the country, and be in the first instance a ponents) tl colonization road. The House will remem- . that those her that that estimate was for $84,000,000,for j experience the work défiév‘i‘féfie 111633;; suBsequent five years propnsed to deal with it. That included ' tm’don had gonetop $80,000,000 as the portion of money required adequate; and the ho for the road and the money expended upon that last yefir, when I surveys. I I was met by hon. gel ,- 3â€"- - L..- And am “no clude that 7 3%: one} Twnmâ€"Yeoy mum...» in fiéfier. BLAKEâ€"D088 the $84,000,000 in- eluded the Pembina branch survey, Whichi was estimated at $1,700,000. I may state ‘ this estimate which I have laid upon the table diflers in some measure from the esti- mate laid upon the table last year, and 1 will tell you frankly why. We stated that we had made our calculation upon the outside estimates. We determined not to be in a position to have to say to the House that the estimates upon which the money had been voted for the construction of the railway ha been exceeded. ‘ ' Hon. Mr. Monnszmâ€"Which contracts? Sir CHAS. TUPPERâ€"All the contracts be- ‘ tween Thunder Bay and the Red River. Hon. Mr. MACKE'NZIEâ€"DOBB the hon. gen- tleman say that he prepared these contracts, md that they were prepared hi hi_s time? “gigâ€"EEAEWTUfi’iiâ€"i say that we twice postponed the advertisement in order to get the most specifig defaila. _.-. .-. .. L, Hon. Mr. MACKENZIEâ€"What I wish to know is ,whether the specifications were chmged between the issuing of the tendon find @110 time when they were received? ' Si‘i CHAS. Tasmanâ€"All I can say is that before we sent out the specifications or en- tertained tenders at all, in addition to the time that elapsed between the change of Government and our entering into office we twice extended the time for receiving tend- ers, ‘so that the specifications might be made with sufiicient accuracy. This estimate, that is now prepared, the present engineer, and which I have laid on [the table of the Houseâ€" the $28,000,000â€"Eovers all the money that has been spent up to the present time, md "all the money that in our judgment, in the light of the work that is now proceeding, will be required to complete it as required by the contract on the tabla. "£3.11. Mr. Aswanâ€"The Yale-Kamloqps section? Sir Camus TUPPERâ€"The Yale‘Kamloops section and everything. I have already stated that the amount that is put. in for engineering, apart from the construction, is $1,600,000, and I drawytbat as adistingtion between the $3,000,000 extqndiug over the range of the Canada Pacific Railway general- Wt: A4_H_L- ‘1. ,. Itiubv v. u... vv._.._._, ly, and which has no relation whatever to the cost of this particular work that five are now handing over, as they have no relation in this sense, that they do not appertain to the construction of that particular work. vvuuu-uvaVâ€" V- .V", : Hon. Mr. BLAKEâ€"They were part of the expense of finding the route on which the road was to be built, andtherefore part of the cost of it. , 4 Sir Cams. Tanninâ€"If: the hon. gentleman will look at the Canadian Pacific Railway Act of 1874 of his hon. friend Mr. Mackenzie he will find that it distinctly states that these surveys are not necessarily to be paid for by the parties entering into the contract. -7-_ n. _L 2.. whfiK-‘fir:fixéguzmâ€"It says that is a matter to be provided for after the contract is entered into. w vuwA a“ _ Sir CHM. TUPPERâ€"I stated frankly that the laws provided that it might or might not be a charge on the contractors, but when it was left in that way, it was not likely to be a chgge ogthgln: 1»; A- _ ,L__._- __ LL- Hzn. Mr. MAORINM-Jt is a charge on the country at allfvents. nu- ,u, ,1, _L:_L vvvvv I, , Sir Cm. TOFFEEâ€"This estimate which has been laid upon the table does not include the cost for surveys that a. year ago I sepa- rated from the $80,000,000 required for the Canada Pacific Railway, but it does include all the other expenditures. as we believe that it had been made, and all that will be in- volved in order to bring that Work to com- pletion. I will now draw attention to the estimates of the contract 8.57de on the table of the House. The estimated distance, and v -rv.-v~. --. I Sir Cameras Torresâ€"The hon. leader of the late Government has ever since poured ; unlimited ridicule on that proposition. He I has always considered those terms inadequate 1 to secure the construction of the great Paci- : fic Railway. The hon. gentleman on the ; pletformfin my presence, declared that we E might as well ofler $10 as $30,000,000 and 50,000,000 acres of land to secure the Cana- 5 dien Pacific Railway. From that day to éthisâ€"not quite to this, but until a few 3 months agoâ€"until the contract was made, every person in this country had been led to believe (our own friends as well as our op- ponents) that the hon. gentleman was right; .that those terms were inadequate, and the f experience of our Government and the g subsequent five years of. the late Adminis- ' tration had gone to prove that they were in- adequate; and the hon. gentleman will find that last year, when I was in extreme, when I was met by hon. gentlemen opposite, rais- V in n hue and cry that we were going to ruin thfs country by the construction of the - am Pacific Builwsy'y sud the necessity the distance which is contracted for and which is binding on the contractors, is 2,627 miles, and I my state that, suppose the con- tractors were to change the route, suppose they were to go north of Lake Nepigon in- stead of south of it, and add fifty miles to the length of the road, they would not receive an additional dollar over and above the Amount stated in the contract. Sir Ann-1;} Sumâ€"Suppose they shorten It? Sir Cans. Tunaâ€"If they shorten it I shall be very glad to find that they do, and they will receive the amount stated in the con. tract it they do. We have chained the route as I say, and the distance is 652 miles, but it is not very easy to locate a railway for construction quite as short as the chained distance. I think that will be readily understood. I will now take up in the contract 311 these propositions in the order in which they have been laid on the table in this House, the order in which they have been voted by this Parliament. A GOOD BARGAIN. I will take up the proposition of 1873, the au- thority that Parliament gave to the then Govemmentto secure the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. It was a cash subsidy of $30,000,000 for the 2,627 miles ( I , AL A _,,A_“,‘ am putting the mileage upon the present route for the purpose of contrast), and the land grant of 50,000,000 acres,â€"20,000 acres per mile for the Pembina branch, making 1,â€" 700,000 acres, and 25,000 acres per mile on 120 miles for the Nepigon branch, making 3,000,000 acres; so that Parliament in 1872 voted 54,700,000 acres. If you estimate the lend at some per-tiequ value for the purpose of comparison.â€" Hon. Mr. Buzzâ€"Hear, hear. Sir Cue. Turnsâ€"Call it one dollar per acre, and I am sure that, unbelieving as my hon. friend the leader of the Opposition is, and wanting in confidence as he has induced the leader of the late Government to become in the value of these lands, I am almost sure that, with the help of the Globe, I could work them up to the belief that these lands are worth a dollar an acre. I despair of getting them further than that, even with that po- tent assistlnce, but I hope to bring them up to the belief that these lands are worth a dollar an acre. Fosmoses of comparison, then, we will call it worth a dollar an acre. wuou, "u vuu om. .., "w-.. .. ea..-“ , we This Parliament voted in land and money a subsidy of $84,700,000, and placed it at the disposal of the Government for the construc- tion of the Canadian Pacific Railway. How has that proposition been treated? Why, air, as I have stated, a company was formed, a. contract was made with them, under the terms of which they were clothed with all the powers and means that we could give them to command the money markets of the world, and they could not do it. d A u..- u. T Lknnnh“ H unuhn who "vigivfir. ANéLiNâ€"I thought it was he who Ipqileq it. K‘ m , "11,. I.-.‘ LMA-.. -t 'KA’A‘ TIE COMPANY WILL PAY. was great to reduce as low as possible the construction of this work, the lowest esti- mate that I could submit to this House, for what I submit is a degraded road, m was $80,000‘000. I now come to the proposition of 1874, and whatdoes that Ihow? The hon. gentleman got this Parlia- ment to vote him for the construction of 2,627 miles of the through line from Lake Ni pisflng to Burma-d Inlet, for 85 miles of the Pemhina branch and for 85 miles of the Georgian Bay branchfi-2fl97 milesâ€"all of which are con- tained in the Act, and all declared to he treated on the same terms, and entitled to the same amount as if they were on the main lineâ€" Hon. Mr. Monnnzmâ€"I was not awan. that that Act declared lerrard Infief t - lw the terminus. ,‘. iSir Camus TUPPBRPâ€"The hons gentleamr ought scarcely to interrupt me With captions objection of that kind, which ha nothing to do with the question. He knows that, as a matter of comparison, I must take s definite route, and he knows also that he was dealing with the Burmrd Inlet route, be. cause he was dealing with the route that he should decide was best, and he did decide that the Bumnd Inlet route was the best. The hon. gentleman should not. therefore, interrupt me with siloh a‘ frivolous objection which has nothing to do with the subject, but which is calculated w draw measide from the argument. Well, what did it amount to ? It amounted to this that with the shortest routeâ€" Mr. MAonszâ€"No. Sir Cunt-s Tainan-The shortest route, because if the hon. gentleman takes any i other practicable route he will increase the it, distanéo. ‘7 7 v Mr. Monnuzmâ€"No. Sir 01mm.“ Twrthes. Mr. Monnuzmâ€"Not the shortest. There are shorter routes. Sir CHARLES TUPPlDâ€"I come to the Actâ€" the law put on the statute book by the hon. gentleman himselfâ€"the authority that this Parliament gave him to construct the Canadian Pacific Railway and what does it enact? It says that on this 2,797 miles, including the main line and branches, he got voted not by estimate but by authority of a. statute to use $10,000 per mile for that distance, which is $2 7,970,000, and he got authority to give 20,000 acres of; land for every mile of that distance, which amounteg to_55,940,120 acres. Hon. Mr. Bu'u-LNot on every mile. , Sir Gamma Tatumâ€"On every mile, as the, hog. geqtilemgn will see by the Act of 1874., Hail. Mr. BLAKEâ€"I théught the contraét' for the Georgian Buy branch was not based on“? 11nd subsigy at 311.77 Sir Gamma Torusâ€"This was Mr. Fos- ter’s contract, which gun 20,000 acres of land, and if the land could not be got along the line, it was to be taken anywhere else in the Dominion. Hon. Mr. MAoannâ€"We do not own the land there at all. Sir Camus Turnsâ€"It had to be got in the Northwest. ~ Sir CHARLES Tarynâ€"The contract makes it a doubtful question whether it could be obtained from the province of Ontario or not. At that time the hon. gentleman had some hopes ofacting on the sense of ju<tice of the province of Ontario, and he might have ob- tained some land from them. Hon. Mr. Manna-That is perfeétly well known. Hon. Mr. Monnsz-â€" Formal application was made. Sir Camus Terranâ€"Yes, but not success- fully ; that Act also provides lor four per cent. on such additional amount as would be required by the contractors in order to build the road. The hon. gentle- man published his advertisement for six months without getting any response Now, how shall we arrive at the amount that was to be paid, in comparison with the other con- tract? There is a very satisfactory mode. The hon. gentleman let the contract for 85 miles, and although I am prepared to admit that that portion of the road is more difl‘ioult of construction than a great deal of the Pa- cific Railway, still the hon. gentleman will not deny that it is a very fair average. Mr. MlOKRNZIEâ€"I do. Sir Camus Terranâ€"Then, sir, I have lost confidence in the hon. gentleman altogether. Has the hon. gentleman forgotten that when the Foster contract was cancelled, and we stated that he was not as wise in letting this contract as he might have been, he scouted the idea, and said there was no difficulty what- ever, and that the contract was not abandoned for any such reason as was alleged. MrfMonnnzmâ€"I could onfy state What thq Engineers staged. ’ Sir CHARLES TUPPEBâ€"I have no doubt, when the hon. gentleman made that state- ment, he believed it to be the truth. If the hon. gentleman will look at the hue north of Lake Superior and examine the character of a considerable portion of it, and then exa- mine the character of the line from the can- yons of the Fraser River or from the foot of the Rocky Mountains and thence to Kam- 100ps, Emory‘s Bar and on to Burrard Inlet, 71 think he will agree that the Georgian Bay branch is a fair average of the whole line. When the hon. gentleman advertised he obtained a tender from Mr. Manson, of Bos- ton, at four per cent on $7,500, while the Foster tender was four per cent on $12,500 and the other tenders were vastly beyond that sum. Mr. Foster became pos- sessed of the lowest tenderâ€"that is, Mr. Munson’s; a contract was made with him, and that contract I have in my hand. You‘ will find that it provides for paying Mr. Foster $10,000 in cash per mile, 20,000 acres of land per mile, and four per cent for 25 years on $7,500. But I must'remind the House that after Mr. Foster had gone to‘ New York and exhausted every effort he could make in England, he found he could not get a capitalist in the World to invest a, dollar in his contract; so that when I take, that contract as a fair average of the cost to; be added to the amount for which the hon, gentleman had authority from Parliament to use, 1 think I have taken an average which every business man will admit is a moderate one. The interest, at four per cent, on $7,500 is $800 a year per mile, and adding that to the amount I have stated, and on the 2,977 miles we have $20,977,500. Eon. Mr.-Bnmâ€"Why do 'you chpitélizo that sum? Sir CHAS. TUPPIIRâ€"I don’t capitalize at all, but it would have be paid in money as the other is paid. Let the hon. gentleman apply that principle to this $25,000,000 we are to pay the Syndicate, and he will find that it means a very much less sum too. The hon. gentleman will find that by the terms under which Parliament in 1874 authorised the late Government to secure the construe tion of the Pacific Railway, the amount to be paid in cash was $48,947,500, which, with 55,940,000 acres of land at $1 per acre, would make $104,887,500 the lowest amount, as the hon. gentleman must admit, which could M- present accurately the amount to be expend- ed upon that scheme. «. 7 It being six o‘clock the Speaker 1‘ ti. Sir Cans. TUPPER, resuming, said his. Chairman, when the recess took place I was dealing with the question of the amount that Parliament had placed at thud“ gal of my hon. friend the then leader the Govern ment for the construction of the 03nd,. dian Pacific Railway, and I find, sir,that I have made»; slight mistake, which I take the earliest opportunity of correcting. I said the distance tram Nipissing to ngrgrd _ gb‘. was ZWIes; I must add {on} AFTER RECESS.