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to that distance, making so much greater e the amount which, after the elections of 1874, Parliament placed at the disposal of the leader of the Government for the construction of the railway, because you will remember the then Government lo- cated the terminus of the railway, not at the Callendar Station, where it is now and where it was first located by the former Govern- ment, but 40 miles south of that point. Therefore, under that act the hon. gentle- man would not only have been obliged to spend $104,887,500 at the lowest computa- tion, but to provide for the construction on the same terms, of 40 miles more to bring the railway down to the terminus as located by the then Government. That will add $400,000 in cash, $300,000 in money at four per cent. on $7,500 per mile for 25 years, and $800,000 in land at a dollar an acre, or $1,500,- 000 annually to make the estimate strictly correct. Now, sir, having shown that Parlia- ment had placed at the disposal of the Government of my Right Hon. friend (Sir John Macdonald) in 1872 $84,700,000 for the construction of the work, that Parliament had placed $104,887,500 at the disposal of the leader of the Government in 1874, to which we must add the $1,500,000 to which I have just re- ferred, I now come to f‘ ran rsssnsr cosrnscr, which is laid on the table of the House for its consideration, for a portion of the line from Fort William to Selkirk, 410 miles, the Pembina branch, 85 miles, and a portion from ; Kamloops to Burrsrd Inlet, 217 miles, all of‘ which, amounting to 712 miles, when the whole line is completed, is to behanded over as the property of the Company. The total amount expended and to be expended by the Government, including everything, is $28,000,000? The Government have agreed to pay in addition to the $28,000,000, $25,000,000 and 25,000,. 000 acres of land, making a total subsidy in cash of $53,000,000, and in land, estimating the 25,000,000 acres at the same rate that I have estimated the land under the contract of 1873 and under the Act of 1874, at $1 an acre, of $25,000,000, or atotnl amount of $78,000,000. I think, sir, warranting the statement with which I commenced my re- marks, that these terms are greatly below any terms that have previously been sanc- tioned by Parliament. The matter then stands thus: under the contract of 1873 $84,700,000; under the contract of 1874 $104,887,500, with $1,500,000 added to bring the road down to the point at which under that act it was to be commenced; under the contract of 1800, now laid on the table of the Home, $78,000,000. 'Now, sir, let me draw the attention of the House for a moment, in order to show that in taking the Foster contract as the base of calculation as to what the 00st under the Act of 1874 would have been, if it could have been accomplished at all, it was a reasonable estimate, an estimate, in feet, below the mark, to the words of the leader of the late Government with reference to the character df that section. The hon. gentleman said, as will befound inthe Hound of 1876 2â€"â€" “ Because he would probably refer to this matter at another time in the House, he would now simply say this: that what was published in many newspapers as to engi- neerin g difliculties encountered in this rela- tion was entirely fallaoious. No difliculty had been experienced in obtaining the grade that was required in the original con- tract, the gradient not exceeding 28 feet per mile for the country eastward and 52 for the country westward. In only two places was there any difficulty in seeming these gra- dients; these the engineers assure me can easily be overcome. The explorations in the immediate vicinity of French river-show that the line traverses arocky though not hilly country." This shows that I have ground from the opinions of the hon. gentleman, for my statement that that would be a fair esti- mate . J 'lyin'g the same principle to the Act of 33%;; iéxxylll show $132,857L500 placed at the 2.». ‘osal offthg Governmentofmy hon. fgiend l w» ite {0, “53‘5ng the construction of the M main the ‘f‘mm at $1-60 annex: r‘besemm WU ‘ 7. I I will now draw the attention 0! the hon. gentlemen opposite to m authori with re- ference to the terms. his may neces- sary, as the position now taken by the 0p- positicn, as may be assumed from that taken by the Globe, is that it is idle to talk about estimating the land at $1 per acre, when everyone knew it was worth 32 per acre. Well, I shall be only too glad it that can be established, but it will not do for the leader of the Opposition or the leader of the Government to meet on that ground, and I will show you why I draw the atten- tion of the committee to the statement made by the leader of the Opposition §Mn Blake), when we were discussing the oster con- tract, and I had ventured to value the land at $2 an acre. That was in 1875, and the hon. gentleman will find his remarks on page 541 of the Hanson]. The hon. entleman said in reference to that point :â€"h t isan en- tirely absurd calculation to say that these 1,-- 700,060 are worth $2 an acre to this country. ‘ Even valuing them at $1 an acre would in my judgment be an excessive valuation.” Then the leader of the late Government gave his opinion on the subject-the hon. gentleman said :â€"â€"“I do not place their fal-ue at $5 an acre; I wish I could say that they were worth $1 an acre.” But whatever the value may be, I am confident I express the views of the committee when I say that whateyer value may be obtained for them over $1 per acre, and I hope it will be great- ly over that rate, will be obtained not in their present position, but in consequence of the construction of the Canada Pacific Railway. In 1879 the hon. gentleman said: â€"“ I do not understand why the hon. gentle- man anticipates a larger revenue from the lands to be sold, because it is absolutely in- dispensable, in orderto induce settlers to go into the country, that we should furnish them with the lands free of charge. Does the hon. gentleman imagine that settlers will go to the Northwest and buy lands at $2 an acre when there are millions of acres of land dfiewd for nothing in the United States 7" Sir JOHN A. MscLoNsLDâ€"Hear, hear. Sir CsssLss Turnsâ€"If we are able to make these lands worth $2 an acre, we will do it by the agency now proposed to con- struct the railway by the expenditure asked for the purpose of ensuring its construction. 'Dhe leader of the late Government also said: .3.“ We must, therefore, make up our minds if we are to settle that country, it will be done only at the expenditure 0! a la! e amount of money to aid settlers on [cl 1: nd giving them land free 11M they [a in. but is my conviction. If the hon. gentle- man’s expectation should be realised of get- ting $2 per acre for those 100,000 acres, I will confess to him that I have been utterly mist'qken in my ideas upon this sub- ' ct." r are much for the value of the nds.» Now, sir, as to the cost of the work. have estimated the lands a $1 per acre, t I will assume for the sake of meeting the present views of the hon. gentlemen Waite half way, that they will be erth $1} an acre, and We will see how the account will stand as between is. gentlemen and ourselves, how far my shtement with which I opened this discus- ' is at $1} gar acre, the contract of 1873, - a pier; to secure the construe.- “3&5 qu9_l'_ooifio Railwpy it!) the Oompan w! lshow a total 'of $112.- 9; h'gw llt e goopqntrthez} stand? 'l'El VAL“ 0' I an. Om . that.” There is an esflmete from the leader of the late Government, the then Minister of Public Works, and submitted to Perliement ,on the authority of his own engineers with all the judgment and experience thet could be brought to bear upon it, M $00,000,000 would be required for the reed from Lake Superior at Thunder Bey to the Pacific Ocean, and yet the present proposition eecuree the construction of the entire roed iwithin ten years from the let of July next : from Lake Nippissing to Burrard Inlet at a looet to the country at the os- ‘timate hon. gentleman opposite placed on 1 the lands, of $78,000,000. atotal ol$90,§00,000. If we go the whole length the Globe asks, and I do not say it is unreasonable, and assume those lands to be worth, after the construction of the road, $2 an acre, the account stands thus an be- tween these various proposals :â€"The proposition 0! 1873 placed at the disposal of the Government lands at $2 an acre worth $139,400,000. At the same eatlmate the value of the lam“ placed at the disposal of the late Govern- ment was $160,825,600. The present propo- sition at $2 an acre reaches a total of only $103,000,000, or less than the amount at $1 an acre placed at the disposal of the late Gov- ernment by Parliament, I think this state- ment oughtto be tolerably satisfactory. I will now give hon. gentlemen oppositean authority as to the cost of this work about to be undertaken that I think they will be compelled toaccept. On the 12th of May, 1874, Mr. Mackenzie iaid:--“From that point westward it ls quite clear that there is no means of rapid communication except by building a ‘ railway, and this por- tion in Briti.h Columbia alone would take $86,000,000, and from the point which Mr. Fleming calculates u the centre of the Rocky Mountains, outward to the junction with navigation, would prob- ably be $100,000,000 or something like TIE YIIWB 0" KB. lAOnNIII IN YOWII. One would have supposed the member for Lambton would have stood aghast at such an estimate as $100,000,000 for the por- tion of the road mentioned, and would have abandoned it as beyond the resources of Canada. But standing as the Prime Minis- ter, and weighted with the responsibility which rests on such a high oflicer, he felt he must not shrink from his duty and he stated as to the section in British Columbia, that would cost $35,000,000, “ we propose to pro- ceed with it as rapidly as we are able to ob- tain a completion of surveys.” He also pro- posed to expend $100,000,000 if necessary to connect the waters of Lake Superior with the tidal waters of the Pacific. The leader of the late Government also said :â€"â€"u We frankly recognise the tailure of the attempt to give a fictitious value to lands in order to get English capitalists to take u the railway, but we also frankly confess t e necessity of building the railway by direct money subsidies or a combined system of giving both money and land.” The hon. gentleman gallantly performed his . duty, and did not shrink from the respon-3 sibility, arduous and responsible as was hisi position. He said :â€"“ We propose to give $10,000 per mile, and a grant the same as that proposed by the late Government of 20,000 acres, and we invite intending com- petitors to state the amount for which they will require the guarantee at‘ 4 per cent in order to give them what they may deem a sufl‘icient sum wherewith to build the road. We know that some think $10,000 per mile and 20,000 acres of land, supposing they realise on an average $1 an acre, will not build the road. It would more than build it in some parts, but from end to end it is evident it will not build it. The Interâ€" colonial Railway will cost about $46,000 a mile traversing on the whole a very favor- able country. The Northern Pacific Railway, in the accounts published by the Company, has cost, so far as it has been carried, that is to Red River, $47,000 or $48,000 per mile in round numbers. That road traverses almost wholly a prairie region, easily accessible, and where materials were easily found, and is alâ€" together quite as favorable as the most fa- vorable spot of any part of our territories, with this advantage, that it was much nearer to producers of supplies than any portion of our line except that on the immediate bor- ders of lakes. The Central Pacific we will not touch, as the cost of that road was so enormous as not to aflord any guide at all, because of the extraordinary amount oi Job- bing connected with it, but judging from the cost of our own railways, we have reason to suppose it will not be possible to construct this line from end to end at a less price than $40,000 per mile, and it may exceed that by Several thousands of dollars. Parts oi it will of wise enceed that very much, though on the whole 01' sections east of the Rocky Mountains something in the neighborhom! of that figure will cover the outlay." The leader of the late Government further stated that the road could not be built as a mum meroial enterprise, and expressed a desire that the gentlemen who undertook that re» sponsibility should show him how it Was. possible to construct a railway 2,500 miles long with a population of four millions, pass- ing during almost its entire length through i an uninhabited country, and for a still great- er portion of its length through a country of a very rough character. I am glad the time has come when, in response to the hon. gen- tleman, we are in a position to show him how that gigantic work can be accomplished and ‘ upon terms more favorable than any the most sanguine person in this country ventured to look for, and I ask the hon. gentleman not i to forget, now that he is sitting on the Oppo ‘ sition benches, that in estimating the cost as , a Minister he felt he would not be doing his I duty if he did not draw the attention oi the House to the tact that when this road is con- will not be discharged but just commen- cing. The hon. gentleman went on to say :â€" “Supposing it only takes the minimum amount estimated by Mr. Sandford Fleming, $100,000,000, you have a pretty good appre- ciation of what it would cost the country, in the end. When you double the debt of the country you will not be able to accomplish the borrowing of the sum of money that would be required to build the road, paying the attendant expenses of management and the debt and everything else connected with it.” The hon. gentlemen opposite last session also enforced very strongly on our attention the fact that if we went on with this work as a Government work and stood pledged in the face of the country and of the financial world to an ex- penditure of eighty to a hundred million dol- lars for the construction of the railway, we could hardly be surprised if it increased the cost of money we were obliged to borrow in the money markets of the world. He said :â€" u If you add t per cent. upon the minimum amount to the existing obligations of the country, you will have in addition to our present annual burdens six millions of dol- lars, which. added together, would make a continuous application of twelve millions of dollars before you have a cent to apply to the ordinary business of the country.” A rather startling ground for the hon. gentle- man to take, but one which commended it- self to all those who listened to the hon. gentleman’s address. The iron. member for Lambton continued z-- N Then we come to the consideration of what would be the position of the road after it was completed. We have Mr. Fleming: 5 mi- thority, that until at least three millio J peo- ple are drawn into that uninhabited country, it isqu'ite impossible to expect the road to TEE LIABILITY RIS'I'ING UPOR Tn COUNTRY , haps would meet expenditures, pay its running expenses. Mr. Fleming esti- mates these at not less than $8,000,000 per annum, and they have still further to he sup- plemented by the proportion of money re- quired each year to renew the read 511; is known, moreover, to railway authorities that, considering the difficulties of climate, and with the ordinary traffic, the road will require renewal, by sleepers and rails every eight or ten years on an average.” First, we would pay $100,000,000 to build the road, next 88,000,000 annually to operate it, subjectto the deduction of whatever traffic the road received, and thirdly, we would have to renew sleepers and rails every eight years unless we used steel rails. This is the pleasant picture which the hon. gentleman himself drew for the consideration of the House and country, and now it appears he hesitates to secure the construction and op- eration of this road forever at a cost of $78,- 000,000. Hy hon. friend the leader oi the Opposition, no longer than a year ago was good enough to give the House his opinion as to the cost of this road and the liability that would be incurred, and I invite his at- tention to his own estimate, as he then gave it. He said :â€"“ Again, of course, the through traflio depends on the road being first-class, and we must remember that after we have spent all the hon. Minister proposes, we shall have not a Pacific, but a colonisation road. According to the old system of construc- tion, that . central section would cost including the other items I have mentioned, altogether over $42,500,000, leaving out en- tirely both ends. What are the endsto cost? $46,000,000 is, as I have stated, the cost from Edmonton to Burrard Inlet on the west, and from Fort William to Nipissing on the east. The hon. member for Lambton estimates it at a length of about 650 miles and a cost of $32,500,000; thus the ends make up toge- ther $77,000,000, the centre and the post ex- penditure $42,500,000, making a total of $120,000,000." And yet the hon. gentleman is startled and astounded, and exhibits the most wonderful alarm when he finds a pro- posal laid on the table of the Housetoseoure' the construction of all that work, which at the cheapest rate was accordingto him to 00st $120,000,000, for $78,000,000. And the hon. gentleman proceeded to say that “ besides this enormous expenditureto which he had referred and this agregate he did not know how many millions, interest on which would be six millions a year, they had to consider running expenses which Mr. Flem- ing estimated at eight millions, and which his hon. friend estimated at the gross sum of $6,760,000 a year for the whole line, or $4,600,000 a year from Fort William to the Pacific. 0! course against this sum was to be set receipts which in some sections per. but in the ‘ early days, if not for a long time, he believed the road would have to be run at a loss.” I ‘ know that this is an authority for which the leader of the Opposition has most profound respect (cheers and laughter) and I trust that in submitting such criticisms, as in the interests of the country every great measure of this kind ought to receive, the hon. gentleman will not lose sight of the position he took in criticizing our proposal twelve months ago. I will again revert to the criticism with relation to the cost, of a more valuable character than that of the leader of the Opposition. No person perhaps esteems the hon, gentle- man’s ability certainly as a special pleader, higher than I myself, or his general judg- ment when he gives questions the fair, can- did unbiassed examination which a question like this deserves, but does not always re- ceive. But I will give the House an opinion which I estimate more highly than that of the leader of the Opposition, and that is the opinion of the gentleman who for five years as leader of the Government or this country dealt with this great question, and was daily and hourly conversant with all its de- tails,I mean the leader of the late government. After all his experience, and after the ex- perience of. year in opposition as well as of five years of administration, he undertook to give to the House his estimate as to what the road would cost, and I frankly confess that I am not for a moment disposed to question the value of his judgment. He said :â€"â€"“l will take the description of the engineers themselves as to the character of the work upon the several sections from Fort William to belkirk, and carry out figures elsewhere on the same description. Seventy miles were described as heavy, 226 miles moderate, and 111 miles light; and, in order to reach the $18,000,000, which the engineers had recent- ly estimated, they would have to take the seventy miles of heavy work at $75,000 per mile; the 226 miles of moderate at $39,000, and the 114 light at $20,000,1naking- altogether, with the rolling stock valued at $1,656,000, $18,000,000. From Selkirk to Battleford, the first 112 miles are described as light, which, with the rails, fencing, etc., might be estimated at $14,000 per mile, or $,:,00010ss than the Pembina Branch; and the second 100 miles I ha e taken and rial- culated as to the material furnished by r. Marcus Smith, and I do not believe that any gradient can be obtained on that section to build the road at less than $20,000 per mile." Subsequent events have thrown perhaps a good deal of light on the tenders sent in and contracts undertaken. No progress was made on the contract, as the hon. gentleman knows, and judgment which the hon. gentleman has givenas to cost, had thereby received very considerable confir- mation. He further said: “We have in some miles a quantity of 39,000 cubic yards of earth to move, and all grades steep, only kept fifty-three feet to the mile, many of them are fifty.three feet. The average of excavation is 16,000 cubic yards per mile. We have, in short, 1,600,000 yards of earth to move which, at the lowest price per yard obtained on other roads, say twenty-five cents on the average, this of itself will cost $400,000." ' ' * - - - “This was almost the exact value of the earth work alone, leaving nothing for bridges, ties, rails, building fences, and other items.” ' " ' ' ' ' ' “ From the end of the second hundred miles to Battleford we have 377 miles. This is not any heavier on the whole. There are some more formidable bridges, but the line is flurther off for the carriage of the rails. I place that section at $2l,000 per mile.” I drew the attention of the hon. gentleman to this now, in connec- tion with the amount proposed to be paid under this contract for the central section. As I have stated, opinions which the hon. gentleman has formed after long experience, as to the lowest amount at which it could be constructed, are entitled to very great con- sideration. Mon. Mr. MAonnnâ€"You did not give much attention to them a year ago. Sir Camus Turnipâ€"The hon. gentleman says I did not give much attention to them a year ago, but looked at in the light of subse- quent events, I am disposed to admit that there is a great deal in the argu- ment of the hon. gentleman. He again said :â€"“ Then from Battleford to Edmon- ton, it is reported by the engineers as thirteen miles very heavy; this I estimate at $60,000a mile, being $10,000 less than the other heavy work east of Selkirk.”al hnpr that when the hon. gentleman ha‘~ (-rilici m“ the amount which we prupnfi? to pay in :h: central section, be will not fi'i‘ge'l llmi n covers 13 miles, whirl; he ersmunp $60,000 a mile, 3mm" inas- [nub l‘m heavy wui'k cast of Selkiik. mm lurthrv ‘â€" ‘4 Forty-nine miles more of the line classed M Ioflerwody heavy! I pnhnmg; A mun. AUTHOR". mile; and seventy miles very moderate, at $25,000, with ninety-eight miles of light work at $20,000 per mile, which makes for this section altogether an average of $27,000 per mile."Ӥ, The hon. gentleman said we have constructed the line from Pembina. to Sel- kirk, 85 miles. This is a. prairie, and a most favorable region, and he stated that the amount I submitted on estimate last year was $1,750,000 for the Pembina branch, but that included more than my estimate now includes for the Pembina branch, and for the reason, as hon. gentlemen will see, the heavy expenditure charged to that branch for workshops, rolling stock, 0120., will now devolve upon the company, and consequently now reduce the estimate to $1,500,000. __ A“ . . u ,n Y“ --~1- hon. MAounnâ€"Gin u 3 detail of the reductions. Sir Chas. Turnsâ€"All 1 can say is, that I took the estimate or the engineer. charging what was fairly chargeable to that roadâ€" buildiugs in connection with its operationâ€" mid the amount of the Pembina branch was therefore placed at $1,750,000. We now reduce that by $250,000, because, as I my, the expenditure we would have had to make Immediately in connec- ~ion gwith the work now devolves upon “ the syndicate under the contract. But the House will see that, according to the estimate which I laid on the table last year and which the hon. gentleman thought altogether below the mark, the Penbins branch, 9. prairie line from end to end, with 110 very heavy bridging, according to my own estimate last year was over $20,000 a mile, but when it is handed over to the Syndicate, $17,270 a mile. The hon. gentle- man continued :â€"u This would make the entire cost of the road west of Lake Superior, including $1,440,- 000 for the Canada Central subsidy, $100,000 for the Selkirk bridge, and $300,- 000 for engineering on 1,946 miles, $89,002,- 000.” Now, there is his opinion. Ihave shown the opinion of the hon. leader of the Opposition that this work, for which we have shown this contract asks Parliament to place at our disposal $25,000,000, according to the estimate of the leader of the Opposi- tion a year ago was to cost $120,000,000, and according to the estimate, the more ma- ture and reduced estimate of hon. gentleman best qualified to judge on that side of the House, was to cost this country $89,002,000 in cash. There was no question of land. We were dealing with the lower estimate of the cost in cash taken out of the treasury of Ce- nada, and the estimate of the hon. leader of the Opposition was in round numbers $90,- 000,000. But I am wrong. I am doing the hon. gentleman a great injustice. The case is a . great deal stronger. I am not able to show there is a. diversity of opinion between the hon. gentlemen. I find that they worked it pretty nearly to the same figure. I was leavâ€" ing out that section north of Lake Superior, but the hon. member from Lambton brings that in and shows that west of Lake superior from Thunder Bay to the Pacific the lowest that we could build it for was 589,- 000,000 in cash. Let us see what he says about the railway to the head of Lake Superior :-â€"“ While from Fort William to Nipissing, 650 miles, estimating the cost at $50,000 per mile, would make it $32,500,000,oratota1 of $121,700,000.” So that these gentlemen are not open to the challenge that on a great public ques- tion their estimates differ, after care- ful consideration, weighing well the responsibility of placing before the House statements that were cautious, judi- cious and safe, upon which the people of \this country could safely base their esti- mates, both of these gentlemen agreed a year ago to build the Canada Pacific Rail- way withfimoney borrowed for the purpose and expended in cash; the correct estimate that this railway from Lake Nipissing to Port Moody, Burrard Inlet, could be accom- plished for was $120,000,0000 to $121,700,- 000. The hon. gentleman continued: “It will be observed, if we apply the figures as I apply them, that is calculating the expen- diture east of Red River between Lake Superior 3nd Selkirk, that it would be__im- possible to obtain the same character of road as to gradients and curvature for less than I have estimated. I am sure I am within the line in stating these figures, and that it would be impossible to construct anything that could be called a railway, anything better than a tramway for less.” That amount was $84,000,000, and yet it was only to be a tramway, and the only possible means of getting a line that could be called a railway was by an expenditure of $121,000,000. He continues zâ€"“ The hon. Minister of Railways thinks it matters little what grades we have west of Winnipeg. He thinks it will suffice for trafic. I observe that the chief engineer, with his usual caution, does not speak of it as the Canadian Pacific Railway at all ; he speaks of it as a colonization road, and it is only that. The hon. Minister of Railways who is entitled to the credit or discredit of this plan of degrading the railway into a track that will not be fit for heavy traflic.” I am thankful for small favors, and I am willing to take the credit or dis- credit of having stated frankly to the House that my idea was not to obtain a first class railway, but the cheapest description of road that would answer for colonization purposes. I have given the House the estimate of the two hon. gentlemen, and I should be wanting very much in my duty to the House if I did not show them that that hon. gentleman himself did not regard the construction of the Canada Pacific Railway as no veryJight matter, and held very much the views and opinions of his two hon. colleagues. Sir Richard Cartwright, in 1874, in his budget speech, said :-â€"“In order rightly to under- stand the extent of the burden wa would be required to take upon ourselves f0‘ the construction of the Canadian Pacific Rail- way, it must be remembered that the lowes' estimate for building this road to the Pacifi- is something over $100,000,000, and this, tot on the supposition that a. very much longe time would] be given for construction. Now Mr. Chairman, I spoke before recess of th: expense arising from the working of the In tercolonial Railway and other railways of th« Dominion, chiefly in the Maritime Provinces The deficiencies resulting from these sources amount to the extraordinary sum of about $1,250,000. I desire to call the special atten- tion of the House to a fact which must be clear to every hon. gentleman that these railways run for the most part through a country which has been settled for the last 50 or 60 years. I cannot refer, of course, to the tact that thefe railways entail such an enormous expendi- ture without its becoming apparent to the House that the cost or maintaining a railway nearly 3,000 miles in length, passing through a country almost entirely uninhabited, must of necessity be very much greater. For a long time after the construction of the rail- way an enormous charge must be entailed to keep the line in full working order and good repair, and this fact must be steadily kept sight of in considering the real character of the pzoject." I trust I have given to the House sufficient evidence to show not only that the preposition which we have the honor to submit for the approval of Parliament is one entitled to their favorable consideration, not only that it is gzcatly within the amount voted by this House in 1873, a“ ' subsequently in 1874, for the constructic '- the Canadian Pacific Railway, but that _. 1s a contract based upon figures low as compared with those which these hon. gentlemen opposite, after all the experience thatfihey had had in connection; III R. OABTWBIGHT’S IBTIHATIS. with this great work, regarded as altogether insufficient for its construction, without re- ference to the provision of a single dol- lar for the purpose of security of the operation of the road ufterwn‘de. I hunt I have given to the goalie sufficient evidence to show not only that the proposal which I hove the honor to submit to Parlia- ment is fitted to their hvorsble conlideretion, not only that it is greatly within the amount voted by this House in 1873 end subsequent- ly in 1874 for the construction of the Gun:- dian Pacific Railway, but thut it is noontraot based upon figures which, compared with those which hon. gentlemen opposite after all their experience in “connection with this work regarded as altogether insuflicient for its conltmction, no for more favorable to this country. Now, I an bound to say I never felt more grateful to Parliament in my' life than when, notwithstanding the startling stetements made by these hon. gentlemen, this House placed 100,000,000 acres at the dis- of this Government for the pur- pose” of constructing the Canadian Pacific Railway. I knew that every intelligent gentlemen in the House and out of it regard- edthlt meeeure u of vitel importance to the wintry; I know they felt it was a duty we owed to the country to get along with this greet work, notwitstending the enor- mous liebility involved, end notwithstand- ing the enormous demands made upon the Treasury of the country; I knew that, obliged es we were to some extent to act upon the best judgment we could form, but to not experimentally, I knew it was a great demd to make upon Parliament for the Government to ask, for powers to proceed with this great work, but we felt that, inas- much uthe construction of this road was requiredto develop the great Northwest, in- asmuch u it wee ehsolutely necessary to make tint country what it could be made And to increeee the population and resources of the whole Dominion, that we were warrant. 8377i: acting upon 'flu policy that lands othorwiu mlou Ihould be utilizeg for the purpose of construction. The House can understand that we felt fully the re- sponsibility of asking for this enormous amount of public money to be expended, hut feeling as we did that when we had construct- ed the work from end to end and were really to operate it, the still heavier responsibility rested upon the country of providing the means of successfully operating that road, for no man could shut out of sight the serious responsibility that the operation of 3,000 miles of railway through such a country would entail. But Parliament felt that the construction of this road was absolutely necessary to the development of Canada, and they generously gave to the Government the assistance we asked for. But they did it under the conviction that we intended to apply those lands in such a way as would ultimately secure the people of the older provinces against taxation for the purpose of constructing the railway. The Government were sensible of this gener- ous feeling on the part or their supporters in this House in sustaining us, notwithstandâ€" ing the fear and the alarm that it we sought to create in this House by hon. gentlemen opposite, when they found themselves in a position to criticise the very measure for which they had asked the House to give them the power of carrying it through. I say the House can understand the pleasure with which we meet the people of Canada through their representatives to-night, and are en- abled to say to them that by the means whichrwe were authorized to use for the con- struction of this work, that we are in a po- sition to state not only that the entire con- ‘struction from end to end, but that the re- sponsibility of operating it hereafter is to be taken off the shoulders of the Canadian Gov- ernment, in consideration of someâ€" thing like the cost to the country of $2,000,000 per annum. not commencing now, however, but that will be the ultimate cost, assuming that we have to pay for over interest on all the money the syndi- cate will obtain under this contract. When we are in a position not only to show that, but to show that out of the 100,000,000 acres of land that Parliament placed two years ago at our disposal, We have 75,000,000 acres left with which to meet the $2,000,000 of expendi- ture, and that expenditure will be diminished until at no distant day we will not only have the proud satisfaction of seeing Canada as. sume an advanced and triumphant position, but that she will be relieved from the expenv diture of a single dollar in connection with the construction or operation of this railway. I may say that I have been greatly gratified at the criticisms that have been bestowed upon the proposition we are submitting to Parliament. Nothing has given more confi- dence in the soundness of our pori- tion and the impregnable attitude we occupy in Parliament, or out of it, than the criticisms to which this scheme has been subjected by the press, so far as I have seen. First I may speak of the Ottawa Oui- zen. I find that in the criticisms of that paper, to which, at all events, we were enti- tled to look for a fair and dispassionate criti- cism, the editor of that paper has evidently handed over his editorial columns not only to a hostile hand, but to a disingenuous writer, who was not willing to put facts fairly before the country, and this strengthens me in my conviction of the soundness of the proposition we are submitting to Parliament. If that contract contained objectionable fea- tures to which the attention of Parliament might be called, and that were sufiicient to condemn it, where was the necessity of the. person who wrote the criticism in the Citizen, for mistating every clause of the contract that he commented upon, from beginning to end? I say nothing has more strengthened my conviction of the soundness of this mea- sure, whether it was the Ottawa Citizen, from which I had hoped better things, or from the Free Press, from which I did not expect any diferent treatment, or the Globe newspaper of Toronto; and when I take up these papers and find that in every criticism every single ground of attack is based upon mistatements of what the contract contains, I am confirmed in my opinion that they found that contract unimpeachable, and that a fair and candid criticism would com- pel them to give their adhesion to it. When 1 look at those criticisms I am reminded of the position a gentleman would occupy who had made a contract for construction of the Great Eastern 88., greater in extent and in- volving a. greater expenditure than any other ship that ever was built in the world. But, sir, I am reminded of what would be the better position of a man who, after building a ship and finishing it complete in every re- spect, would be told by his employers that the ship was all right in design, material and workmanship, but that there was a little twist in the jolly boat which they did not like, and on that account they did not think they would tackle her. I say, that when we come down to Parliament with a great mea- sure like this, when we occupy a position in respect to the probable completion of this great work, which twelve months ago the most sanguine man in the country could not have hoped we would occupy, these hon. gentleman hesitate. They say, although you have found gentlemen with great resources at their command, to go forward with an en- terprise so essential to the progress of Canaâ€" da, although the work is to be completed on apurely commercial basis, these gentlemen, hiring their hacks as they have been obliged to do upon their own declarations again and again declared} still complain of an arrange? L VIII!!! IIIPONIIIILI". ITRINGTEINID BY ORITXOISK. ment which happily we have been enebled to place before Petliement. But for the remarks of hon. gentlemen opposite which ‘ have led me to believe to the contrary, I kshould have thought thnt this was s meas- ure 101' which I could heve confidently asked the support not only of those who usually support the Government. but of hen. gentle- men opposite, who stood committed by their fies and by the strongest possible state- nts of their leaders to the support of terms for the construction of this work much less fivorghle than those embodied in the present oontreet. “But,” say these hon. gentlemen, “we don’t like the Company"â€"s remark most libelloul and insulting to the gentlemen who compose the syndicste. Hon. Mr. MACKENILIâ€"Who said so ? Sir CEAI Turnsâ€"The org-n of the hen. gentlemen in this city. The gentlemen who have undertaken this work stand before the people of this country to-day in the strong- est position that it is possible for gentlemen to occupy in relation to a great enterprise such as this. The Canadians en- gaged in the enterprise are men who are second to none in respect of commercial standing and capacity, and by their success in carrying out their great railway enterprises, they have aflorded us the best possible guarantee for the manner in which they will fulfil their engagements with the Govern- ment and the Parliament of Canada. I may be told that the owners of the St. Paul, Min- neapolis & Manitoba Railway are members of this syndicate, and, sir, I am proud to know that that is the fact, and for this reason :â€"â€"I say that standing outside of this association, they were in aposition of antagonism to Canada, because they were the owners of a line of railway to the south of the Great Northwest and of large tracts of fertile land contiguous to that railway. We all know that the great barrier, to the successful de- velopment of the Northwest was that in the absence of a Canadian Pacific Railway our immigration was obliged toillter through the territories of the United States, and the great efforts which have been made to secure immigration into, the U. 8., and intercept- those who were on the way to our North- west have not been made by the Government of that country or by the legislature of the States, but by the railway companies, who haveapersonal interest in bringing these immigrants into their own territories. Why, sir, we have annexed a large portion of the State of Minnesota to Canada in this my, and any man with a head on his shoulders ‘ will see at once that a Company who have §engaged to build and operate aroad 850 , miles from Thunder Bay to Nipissing, and ‘ who are to be the owners of one thousand ‘ miles of road from Red River to Nipissing, cannot aflordtodo anything less than at- tract along that route and from the railways to the south a volume of immigrationto settle the lands, for that alone can make their enterprise successful. The interest which these gentlemen will have in the Canada Pacific Railway will be ten fold greater than any interest they ever had in the St. Paul, Minneapolis 8: Manitoba, and I care not what their nation- ality may be u the signatories of that con- tract, Canada possesses in then the most undoubted evidence that they will spare no effort to secure tramc on the Csnadlsn Pacific Railway. The hon. gentlemen seemed to think that this company would not bear the scrutiny and investigation which was desir- able. Sir Gnu. Tennâ€"Well, perhaps the 00'“: zen is now the orgnn of the hon. gentlemen opposite. I know that within the short space of 24 hours they were able to take the Time: out of our hands by some meansâ€"a “pullman device,” I believe, they called it; but, sir, I do not feel surprised that hon. gentlemen reject with scorn the imputation that the Free Prue is their organ or speaks their sentimentsâ€"9. journal that attempts to throw obloquy upon gentle- men of the highest standing in Canada and in the British Empire. Hon. gentlemen do not like the Company, but one would sup- pose that their ideas had undergone revul- sion upon that question. " Hon. Mr. [maximâ€"Do you mm the 05mm! With regard to the terms of the contract, I do not hesitate to say that no greater injury could have been inflicted on the ,people of Canada than to have made the conditions of the engagement so onerous that instead of ensuring their successful fulfilment, they would have led to failure. I say that the momentthat contract is signed everything that men can do for the purpose of obtaining the best terms in their power has been done, always under the impression that we owed it to Canada to make a contract that was capable of fulfilment, to give those gen~ tlemena fair contract, and aflord them a fair opportunity of grappling with this great, this gigantic enterprise, that we were so anxious to transfer from our shoulders to theirs; and I would ask this House whether they think this contract involving the great business and importance that it does. is one to sit down and cavil over in the or- dinary acceptation of the term in relation to contracts, and to drive the most difficult bargain that could be driven, and perhaps lead to what occurred when we made the contract in 1878, with terms largely in excess of those that this contract contains. But it was not a contract that was capable of fulfilment, because the parties were unable in the then conditions of this country to raise the capital that was neces- sary. Now we approach this question in this spirit, and would ask every member of this House if we should not be unworthy of re- presenting the Parliament of Canada in the discharge of the public business if we had not felt in the interests of Canada that this arrangement should be one that would obtain the command of the capital that was requir- ed, and that would enable the parties engag- ed in this great work to make it thoroughly suceessfsl, as I trust it will be. We have reason to know that all that a command of capital can do they have the advantage of, t and have recson :0 know that all that skill and energy and a knowledge of precisely such work will doghas been secur- ed in order to make this a successful contract, and I would ask non. gentlemen opposite what more is desirable or necessary. I have reterred to the position that those gentlemen occupy, but I would just ask hon. gentlemen opposite whether Canada would likely have this contract carried out with the success we all desire, expect and hope for, if we had made the contract with the strongest body of capitalists that could be found in the city of London? What would you have had ? We would have had as the first thing an English euginueer with extravagant ideas, totally ignorant of the work and construcâ€" tion of railways through such a country, and we warm have fit nfl‘dmaut‘day, no mamr Hon. Mr. lhonrmlâ€"Who Mid lo 7 Sir CHAS. Tummyâ€"I hope I did not do the leader of the Opposition 1n injustico when I thought that my mention of the compnny w'u rocoive'd by him in tho vny in which he usunlly receives a. sentiment with which he doel not agree. Hon. ananâ€"I do not gilt. understand the hon. gentleman. Sir 01ml- Tunnâ€" I lay tlnt that Company embraces cepitelilte both of our own and of other countriel who no men of the highest ohnracter, men whose names are the but (unnteos that could be afiorded the people of Cloned: thet Any enterprise they may undertake will be lucceesful. [on m CONTRACT mm II “INDIIID. m In“!!! 0! TH]! SYNDIOA'I'I. what their resources might be, I perfect fail-- are in their hands; and worse than that, you would have had discredit brought upon the country in consequence of the parties who had purchased their bonds failing to obtain that interest which they justly expected from their investment. Whether you look at the Arm:â€" rican, the Cmadieu or at the English, Fremh or German gentlemen assoeiated with fills: enterprise, I believe thet Chnada has been most fortunate in lining this Work placed 21 their hands. It is stated that the security of $1,000,000 for the carrying out of the conâ€" tract is too small. They say that a paid-up capital of $5,000,000 within two years and a deposit of $6,000,000 is too small. My Opinion of security is this, that provided you get the parties who In most likely to deal successu fully with the matter, the less security you demand the better, becsuse just in prbpor- tion as you back up the resources of the party, the more you decrease his power to carry on this work successfully. Hon. Mr. Bunâ€"In order {:0 improve tha situation, lot us strlko out the clause about the million dollars. ' Sir Cunt-s Turnsâ€"Oi course we are speaking within a certain latitude, and 1 would ask the hon. gentleman to turn his at- tention to what was a similar work construc- ted on this continentâ€"the Union Pacific Railway, and I would ask him whether the capital of that company was larger, of whe- ther the security given by them tor the con- struction of the road was larger than is now obtained with this company. He may ex- amine into the acarrying out of any of those great works, and he will find that tlie secur- ity that the Government had was con. fidence in the parties engaged in the projects that they would carry them out to completion. The hon. gentleman will find that under this arrangement we have the best guarantee that these works will be pushed rapidly to completion under the contract as now proposed. This contract re- quires the parties to complete the road in ten years, that in July, 1891, it shall be carried to completion, and I may say, sir, although the hon. leader of the Opposition may have forgotten it, he took the liberty a year ago of expressing his opinion, and to a certain extent, I suppose, his sympathy with the deplorable condition in which the mem- bers from the Province of Quebec found : iu-m selves. The hon. gentleman said that l~ Qm bec had spent $11,000,000 which she could ill-afford for the construction of a provincial railway. principally for the purpose of tapping the Pacific trade. m "I Hours To I‘ll OLDIB PBOVINOES. Quebec had stretched out her arms toward the great West as far as this city for the purpose of securing that trade, and the question is how soon that expenditure is to be made available. Hu- road is paying as it is. What Quebec ex-- pected was that it should pay some fraction oi interest on its construction, but they also expected it would hear a great tide of Wes. tern traffic into her principal cities, and bring prosperity to her people, but unless some through connection is made,‘these ex’pecm- tions on the part of Quebec would not be realised, that if the eastern end was not constructed till the western end was finish- ed, he hoped they would all be alive to enjoy the results.” I will not say that there was any sarcasm in these remarks; I will not say that the hon. gentleman was not shedding tears of sympathy when he was bemoaning the lgppy fate of Quebec, but where are Nova cotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and wherois the Province of Ontario 7 ‘Why, they stand in a position to-day that a year ago we would have been laughed at if we had ventured to predict. If we~ had saida year ago that by this session we would be enabled to provide a contract by which in 1891 all the cities of these provinces would have easy communication with the great , Northwest territories of Canada, it would Ihave been considered impossible of attain, ment. What is of more vital importance to , this province and the cities of the East, ‘ Quebec, St. John and Halifax, than that they should have ready access to the great N orth- west? The fact is that that great country, with its millions of fertile acres, that yield abundant returns to the industry of agricul- turists, must for gears to come, during the development of t at vast territory, depend upon the older provinces for its manufac- tures. Therefore it is of vital importance to every section of Canada, and to no portion more than the Northyvcst, that there should be easy, rapid and cheap communication established at an early day. New, sir, I will draw the attention of the House for a moment to what will be accom- plished. The road is to be commenced on the 1st of July next at Callendar station, near Lake Nipissing, and under this COIlil‘llLi is to he proceeded with pari pass-u at such an annual rate of progress as will secure through connection with the Canadian Pacific Rf!- way by 1891. Now, with regard to the d...)â€" tance, everybody knows that the construc. tion of this line will shorten the distam'“ between all our "great cities and Winnlpw the present emporium of the Northwest, Ivy some 500 miles, but assuming that we had to go by the Sault Sic. Marie in the absence of any line at the north of Lake Superior, the distance by the Sault and Duluth would be, from Nipissihg t0 Sault Ste. Marie 294 miles, from Sault Ste. Marie to Duluth 410 miles, and from Duluth via Emerson to Winnipeg 464 miles, making the total distance from Oallendar Station l‘r Winnipeg 1,168 miles. That was the Shint- est route which twelve months ago the. Gov- ernment were able to hold out any expect-1â€" tion of obtaining. Now, we propose to seem the construction of a through line, to be com. menced on the 1st of July next, which will shorten that distance by 111 miles. Sir Gus. TUPPERâ€"It is 1,006 miles from Nipissing along Thunder Bay to Winnipeg if you take the lake, or 1,057 miles by rail, the distance from Gallendar Station to Linkoping, the station where the line will strike the Thun- der Bay branch, being 686 miles, and that from Linkoping to Winnipeg being 371 miles; so that the House will see we have the shortest possible line by which to reach Winnipeg. It will also see that the distance from Montreal to Callendar Station is 354 miles, while the distance from Toronto by the Gravenhurst line is 226 miles, or 128 miles less than that from Montreal I may now advert for a moment to proposition. I am told that the stand. nrd in too low, that the standmd of the Union Pacific Railway is a very un iavorable standard, and that we ought. In have selected something higher. Well, it i,» very well, after having obtained the opporâ€" tunity of making a contract, to make sevu e stipulations, but when I have stated to the House the terms under which these gentle- men have undertaken to construct this 1‘0;th Ithink you will agree with me that they were entitledto as favorable consideration as we could giyethem. I should like to know what position the Government of Canada'would have been in who, after hav- ing offered $84,000,000 in 1873 to the com- pany of which Sir Hugh Allen was the pre- sident should ask the gentlemen who were undertaking to do the same work for $78,000,000, to make the term 3 more onerous than those of the yroviorxi contract. If «my hon! gentlemen noun or m OllJIOTIONl which nave been urged Ag: Hon. Mr. BLAKEâ€"That is 1,057 miles from Winnipeg to Southeast Bay. m IIOURI'I‘Y OITAINED. urged ugajnst thj s