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hi his 0 same rincl) lo 0190 the edACt of thy Show 1 2, gm the “M salof e Gov mm ‘55 5am ite f'm «curing the comma gt. 0 the . v â€".».â€" .-_ 'FVVW'-"fl vâ€"v wit-’1'! ' M" m u” ‘ £33?! Rm Wm‘mflw -‘ istgken in my 1 act.” 7 to much i nds. » Now, air,u1 have estlmated thc I will assume 1? “I present views 1 ' Wham $711119;ng mg? £1 uuv’ vvu-w yvurnu we nu WID. Dull wuuwver e val may be, I am confident I express the views of the committee when 1 say that whatever value may be obtained for them Ever $1 per acre, and I hope it will be great- 5"? y over that rate, will be obtained not in _ heir present position, but in consequence f the construction of the Canada Pacific %ilway. In 1879 the hon. gentleman said: “ I do not understand why the'hon. gentle- man anticipates a larger revenue from the lands to be sold, because it is absolutely in- dispensable, in order to induce settlers to go into the country, that we should furnish them with the lands free of charge. Does the hon. gentleman imagine that settlers will 'go to the Northwest and buy lands at $2 on ecre when there are millions of com o! lend offered for nothing in the United Btetes 1” Sir Jose A. Humaneâ€"Beer, heel. Sir Camus Tarynâ€"If we are able to make these lands worth an acre, we will do it by the agency n poled boon- struct‘tflqnilw by the $100,!“ uked for the purpose of ensuring ite construction. the leader of the 1m Government .1» aid : 5â€"“ We must, therefore, make up our minds if we are to settle that country,“ will be done only at the ex endl‘ to of e 1-1: amount of money to d on on Iain; d giving them lend free after they get in. flat is my conviction. If the hon. gentle- men’s expectation should be realised of (et- blng $2 per acre for than 100,000 sores, I will confess to him thnt I have been utterly Fiatflke" in my ideal_ upon this sub- Then the leader of the late Government fave his opinion on the subject~ the hon. mtleman saithâ€"“I do not piaco their us at $5 an acre; I wish I wuld say that they werelworth $1 an acre." But whatever ‘ I will now draw the atteaflou of the hon. gentlemen o poaite to m author! with re- ferehce to t 0 terms. hie ma neces- sary, as the position now then the 0p - position, as maybe mined from that taken by the Globe, is that it in idle to talk about estimating the land at 3? I ”note, when eve1yone knew it was w acre. Well, I shall be only too guild i! that can be established, but it will8 not do for the leader of the Opposition or the leader of the Government to meet on that ground, and I will show you why I drew the atten- tion of the committee to the statement made by the leader of the Opposition ‘10. Blake), when we were drawing the oeter con- tract, and I had ventured to value the land at $2 an acre. That was in 1875, and the hon. gentlemen will find his remarks on me 641 of the Barnard. The hon. ontleman said in reference to that point. â€"-“ t lean on- tirely absurd calculation to say that these 1, - 700, 000 are worth $2 an acre to this country Even wining them at $1 on store would in my judgment be an exoesaive valuation.” Then the leader of the late Government to that distance, making so much greater oaths amount which, after the elections of 1874, Parliament placed at the disposal of the leader of the Government for the construction of the railway, because you will remember the then Government lo- cated the minus of the railway, not at the Callendar tion, where it is now and where it was first located by the former Govern- ment, but 40 miles south of that point. Therefore, under that act the hon. gentle- man would not only have been obliged to spend $104, 887,500 at the lowest computa- tion, butto provide for the constructionon ‘the same terms, of 40 miles more to bring the railway down to the terminus as located Shy the then Government That will add $400,000 in cash, $300,000 in money at four per cent. on $7,500 per mile for 25 years, and , $800, 000 in land at adollaranacre,or$1, 500,- 000 annually to make the estimate strictly correct. Now, sir, having shown that Parlia- ment had placed at the disposal of the Government of my Bight Hon. friend (Sir John Macdonald) in 1872 $8A,700,000 for the construction of the ork, that Parliament had placed $104. 887,20 500 at the disposal of the leader of the Government' in 1874, to which we must add the $1,500,000 to which I have just re- ferred, I now come to iHouse f a moment, in Order to show that in takin he Foster contract as the bsse of calculation as to whet the oestunder the Act of 1874 would have been, if it could hove been accomplished at all, it was s reesoneble estimate, on estimate, in hot, below the mark, to the words of the leader of the late Government with reference to the ohsrecter of that section. The hon. gentlemen said, as will be “found in the Hound of 1878 :â€" “Because he would probably refer to this matter at another time in the House, he ,would now simply say this: that what was 'published in many newspapers as to engi- neering difliculties encountered in this rela- tion was entirely fallacious. No difllculty had been experienced in obtaining the grade that was required in the original con- tract, the gradient not exceeding 28 feet per‘ mile for the country eastward end 52 for the{ country westward. In only two pieces was i there any difliculty in securing these gra- dients; these the engineers assure me can *easily be overcome. The explorstions in the ’immediate vicinity of French river show that‘ v P TH] rusls'r com-nor, k which is laid on the table of the House for its consideration, for a portion of the line hon: Fort William to Selkirk, 410 miles, the Pembina branch, 85 miles, end a portion from Kamloops to Burrud Inlet, 217 miles, :11 of which, amounting to 712 miles, when the whole line is completed, is to he landed over as the property of the Company. The total amount expended and to be expended by the Government, including everything, is $28,000,00035 The Government have agreed to pey in addition to the $28,000,000, $25,000,000 end 25,000,. 000 acres of land, msklng e. total subsidy in cash of $63,000,000, and in land, estimati the 25,000,000 notes It the seine rate that have estimated the lend under the contract of 1873 and under the Act of 1874, at $1 an acre, of $25,000,000, or etohl mount of $78,000,000. I think, lit, warranting the statement with which I commenced my re- marks, that these terms ere greetly below any terms that hue previously been sanc- tioned by Parliament. The matter then stands thus: under the contract of 18,73, $84,700,000; under the eontmt of 1874‘ $104,887,500, with $1,500,000 added to bring ‘ the road down to the point et which! under thet act it wee to be commenced-1 under the cone-ct of use, new kid“ on the table of the Home, $78,000,000. glow, sly, let me drew_ the ettention of the the line trivoraoé a rocky though not hilly country." "This show: that 1 bus ground om the pinion: of the hon. condemn, for meat tint that would be a {Air cati- ’ct."‘y-qo much for the value of the suds.» Now, sir, we to the cost of the work. have estlmated the lead- a $1 per acre, It I will assume for the sake of meeting re present views of the hon. gentlemen mite half way, that they will be m1: 9: an acre, ehd We will lee ho . eaooount will Itmdee betwoen E- eme‘a end ourselves, how fir my out with which I opened thi- dlecnl- DI “i be some out. If you velne the I till ’0 home out. If you ulna tho h # giant-o, the coztnwt of 1873, :3; e glacier to sacure the construc- anwaflio Railway to the vi 1 show a total of$112.- ,m,m“¥nu 9 account then stand? I‘ll VAL“ 0’ - HID. i1_.59_an;a91 wifll this work as 3 Government work and stood pledged in the face of the country and of the financial world to an ex- penditure oteighty to a hundred million dol- lm for the construction of the milwty, we could hardly be surprised if it incrmed the cost of money we were obliged to borrow in the money markets of the world. He said :â€" u If you add h per cent. upon the minimum amount to the existing obligations of the country, you will have in addition to our present annual burdens six millions of dol- lers, which, added together, would, make a continuous application of twelve millions of ”dollars before you have a cent to apply to the ordinary business of the country.” A rather startling ground for the hon. gentle- man to take, but one which commended it- self to , all those who listened to the hon. gentleman’s address. The hon. member for Lambton continued :â€" “Then we come to the consideration of what would be the position of the road after it was completed. We have Mr. Fleming's au- thority, that until at least three million peo- ple ere drawn into that uninhabited country, ‘itirmite impossible to me are mm m will not be discharged but just commen- cing. The hon. gentlemen went on to say :â€" " Supposing it only takes the minimum amount estimeted by Mr. Sendford Fleming, $100,000,000, you have a pretty good appre- ciation of what it would cost the country, in the end. When you double the debt of the country you will not be able to accomplish the borrowing of the sum of money that would be required to build the reed, paying the attendant expenses of management and the debt and everything else connected with it.” The hon. gentlemen opposite last session elso enforced very strongly on our attention the fact that, if we went on ter, and weighted with the responsibility which rests on such a high ofiicer, he felt he must not shrink from his duty and he stated as to the section in British Columbia, that would cost $35,000,000, “ we propose to pro- ceed with it as rapidly as we are able to ob- tain a completion of surveys.” He also pro- posed to expend $100,000,000 if necessary to connect the waters of Lake Superior with the tidal waters of the Pacific. The leader of the late Government also said :â€"“ We frankly recognise the ihilnre of the attempt to give a fictitious value to lands in order to get English capitalists to take a the railway, but we also frankly confess t e necessity of building the railway by direct money subsidies or a combined system of giving both money and land." The hon. gentlemen gallantly performed his duty, and did not shrink from the respon- sibility, arduous and responsible as was his position. He said :â€"“ We propose to give $10,000 per mile, and a grant the same as that proposed by the late Government of 20,000 acres, and we invite intending com- petitors to state the amount for which they will require the guarantee at 4 per cent in order to give them what they may deem a suflioient sum wherewith to build the road. We know that some think $10,000 per mile and 20,000 acres of land, supposing they realise on an average 31 an acre, will not build the road. It would more than build it in some parts, but from end to end it is evident it will not build it. The Inter- colonial Railway will cost about $45,000 a mile traversin on the whole a very flavor- able country. 0 Northern Pacific Railway, in the accounts published by the Company, has cost, so far as it has been carried, that is to Red River, $47,000 or $48,000 per mile in round numbers. That road traverses almost wholly a prairie region, easily accessible, and where materials were easily found, and is al- together quite as favorable as the most fa- vorable spot of any part of our territories, with this advantage, that it was much nearer to producers of supplies than any portion of our line except that on the immediate her» dots of lakes. The Central Pacific we will not touch, as the cost of that road was so enormous as not to afiord any guide at all, because of the extraordinary amount of Job- bing connected with it, but judging from the cost of our own railways, we have reason to suppose it will not be possible to construct this line from end to end at a less price than $40,000 per mile, and it may exceed that by several thousands of dollars. Parts of it will of wise enoeed that very much, though on the whole of sections east of the Rocky Mountains something in the neighborhomi of that figure will cover the outlay.” The leader of the late Government further stated that the road could not be built as a com- mercial enterprise, and expressed a ‘desire that the entlemen who undertook that re- sponsibility should show him how it was possible to construct a railway 2,500 miles long with a population of four millions, pass- ing during almost its entire length through an uninhabited country, and for a still great- er portlon of its length through a country of a very rough character. I am glad the time has come when, in response to the hon. gen- tleman, we are in a position toshow him how that gigantic work can be accomplished and upon terms more favorable than any the most sanguine person in this country ventured to look for, and I ask the hon. gentleman not to forget, now that he is sitting on the Oppo- sition benches, that in estimating the cost as a Minister he felt he would not be doing his duty if he did not draw the attention oi the House to the lact that when this road is con- One would have supposed the member for Lumbton would have stood aghut at such an estimate as $100,000,000 for tho por- tion of the road mentioned, and would have abandoned it as beyond the resources of Canada. But standingusthe Prime Minis- timate hon. gentlemn 'oppoaito paced 611 the lands, of 878,000,000. etofel oneojoopoe. If we go the whole length the Globe asks, and I do not say it is unreesonable, and assume those lands to be worth, after the construction of the road, 82 an acre, the account stunds thus as be- , tween these various proposals :â€"-The proposition of 1873 placed ut the disposal of the Government lands at $2 en acre worth $130,400,000. At the some ertimste the velue of the lends ,pluoed at the disposal of the lute Govern- ment was $160,825,500. The present propo- sition at $2 an ecre reaches s. total of only $103,000,000, or less than the amount at 81 an acre pieced at the disposul of the late Gov- ernment by Parliament. I think this stute- ment oughtto be tolembly satisfactory. I will now give hon. gentlemen opposites: euthority us to the cost of this work about to be undertaken that I think they will be compelledtoaccept. Onthe 11th of May, 1874, Mr. Mackenzie suid:â€"-u l'rorn thet point westward it is quite oleur thnt there is no means of rapid communication except by building a railway, end this por- tion in Briti.h Columbie ole-e would take $35,000,000, end fro. the point which Hr. Fleming oulcnletee us the centre of the Rocky lounteins, eutwurd to the junction with nevigution, would prob- ably be $100,000,000 or something like the .” There is an estimte from the lender of the late Government, the then Hinistm' of Public Works, and submitted to Puliament on the euthority of his own engineers with 1 ell the judgment end experience thet could ‘ be brought to bear upon it, that $100,000,000 ‘ would be required for the roed from Lake Superior ut Thunder Buy to the Pacific Ocean, end yet the present proposition secures the construction of the entire roed within ten ears from the 1st of July next from Luke ippissing to Burrnrd Inlet at a cost to 'the country ' et the res- TEE LIABILITY name my I'll COUNTRY VIIIWE 01' n. XAOKINIII IN town. ,., , -____,....--u vvuuUA ,. impossibrem uxinccme rm t6 h-vl' v. uuv uuv 0133590 hmoézfiy My! I‘pltfi W5 Sir Camus Tokensâ€"The hon. gentleman says I did not give much attention to them a year ago, but looked at in the light of subse- quent, events, I am disposed to admit that there is a great deal in the argu- ment of the hon. gentleman. He again said :-â€"“ Then from Battleford to Edmon- ton, it is reported by the engineers as thirteen miles very heavy; this I estimate at $60,000 a mile, being $10,000 less than the other heavy work east of Selkirk.”91 hope that when the hon. gentleman has criticised the amount which we propose to pay in tlu- central section, he will not forget 11m: it covers 13 miles, which be eslinmes 31 $60,000 a mile, $10,000 less than for my heavy work east of Selkirk. Still further -. fl Fortymine miles more of the line classed .L 4%,; ‘ ' ‘ ' “From the end of the second hundred miles to Battleford we have 377 miles. This is not any heavier on the whole. There are some more formidable bridges, but the line is further of for the carriage of the rails. I place that section at $21,000 per mile.” I draw the attention of the hon. gentleman to this now, in connec- tion with the amount proposed to be paid under this contract for the central section. As I have stated, opinions which the hon. gentleman has formed after long experience, as to the lowest amount at which it could be constructed, are entitled to very greet con- siderstion. Hon. Mr. Mannaâ€"You did not give much attention to them a year ago. W, -, -_ V..--...vu any light, which, with the rails, fencing, etc., might be estimated at $14,000 per mile, or $53,000 less than the Pembina Branch; and the second 100 miles I have taken and fil- culated as to the materials furnished by 1'. Marcus Smith, and I do not believe that any gradient can be obtained on that section to build the road at less than $20,000 per mile." Subsequent events have thrown perhaps a good deal of light on the tenders sent in and contracts undertaken. No progress was made on the contract, as the hon. gentleman knows, and judgment which the hon. gentleman has givenas to cost, had thereby received very considerable confir- mation. He further said: “ We have in some miles a quantity of 39,000 cubic yards of earth to move, and all grades steep, only kept fifty-three feet to the mile, many of them are fifty-three feet. The average of excavation is 18,000 cubic yards 'per’mile. We have, in short, 1,600,000 yards of earth to move which, at the lowest price per yard obtained on other roads, say twenty-five ”cents on the average, this of itself will cost $400,000." ' - ° ' ° ' “This was almost the exact value of the earth work alone, leaving nothing for bridges, ties, rails, building fences, and other items." ' ' ' But I will give the House an opinion which I estimate more highly than that of the leader not the Opposition, and that is the opinion of the gentleman who for five years as leader of the Government 01 this country dealt with this great question, and was daily and hourly conversant with all its de- tails,I mean the leader of the late government. After all his experience, and after the ex- perience ofa year ii" opposition as well as of five years of administration, he undertook to give to the House his estimate as to what the road would cost, and I frankly confess that I am not fora moment disposed to question the value of his judgment. He said :â€"â€"“ 1 will take the description of the engineers themselves as to the character of the work upon the several sections from Fort William to belkirk, and carry out figures elsewhere on the same description. Seventy miles were described as heavy, 226 miles moderate, and Ill miles light; and, in order to reach the $18,000,000, which the engineers had recent- ly estimated, they would have to take the seventy miles of heavy work at $75,000 per mile; the 228 miles ' of moderate at $39,000, and the 114 light at $20,000, making» altogether, with the rolling stock valued at} $1,656,000, $18,000,000. From Selkirk to Battleford, the first 112 miles are described as like 1 coin. great measure of this kind ought to receive, the hon. gentleman will not lose sight of the position he took in criticizing our propoul twelve months ago. I will again revert to the criticism with relation to the cost, of n more valuable character than thet of the leader of the Opposition. No person perhaps esteems the hon1 gentle- man’s ability certainly as a special pleader, higher than I myself, or his general judg- ment when he gives questions the fair, can- did unbisssed enmimtion which a question lil.‘ 1.1.x- J_,__*,, . pay its running expenses. Hr. Fleming esti- mates these at not less than $8,000,000 per annum, and the have still further to be sup- plemented by e proportion of money re- quired each year to renew the road (3 It is known, moreover, to railway authorities that, considering the dlflculties of climate, and with the ordinary traiflc, the road will require renewal, by sleepers and rails every eight er ten years on an average.” First, we would pay $100,000,000 to build the road, next 88,000,000 annually to operate it, subject to the deduction of whatever tunic the road received, and thirdly, we would have to renew sleepers and rails every eight years unless we used steel rails. This is the pleasant picture which the hon. gentleman himself drew for the consideration of the House and country, and now it appears he hesitates to secure the construction and op- eration of this road forever at a cost of $78,- 000,000. My hon. friend the leader oi the Opposition, no longer than a year ago was ‘ good enough to give the House his opinion as to the cost of this road and the liability that would be incurred, and I invite his at- tention to his own estimate, as he then gave it. He said 2â€"“ Again, of course, the through traflc depends on the road being first-class, and we must remember that after we have spent all the hon. Minister proposes, we shall have not a Pacific, but a colonisation road. According to the old system of construc- tion, that central section would cost including the other items I have mentioned, altogether over 342,500,000, leaving out en- flrely both ends. What are the endstocost? 845,000,000 is, as I have stated, the cost from Edmonton to Burrard Inlet on the west, and from Fort William to Nipiesing on the east. The hon. member for Lambton «Quotes it at a length of about 650 miles and a cost of $32,500,000; thus the ends make up toge- ther $7 7,000,000, the centre and the past ex- penditure 342,500,000, making a total of $120,000,000." And yet the hon. gentleman is startled and astounded, and exhibits tht most wonderful alarm when he finds a pro- posal laid on the table of the Housetosecure’ “the construction of all that work, which at the cheapest rate was according to him to cost $120,000,000, for $78,000,000. And the hon. gentleman proceeded to say that “ besides this enormous expenditureto which he had referred and this agreg'ate he did not know how many millions, interest on which would be six millions a year, they had to consider running expenses which Mr. Flem- ing estimated ateight millions, and which his hon. friend estimated at the gross sum of $6,750,000 ayear for the whole line, or $4,600,000 a year from Fort William to the l’aoilc. 0! course against this sum was to be set receipts which in some sections per- haps would meet expenditures, but in the early days, if not for a long time, he believed the road would have to he run at a loss." I know that this is an authority for which the leader of the Opposition has most profound respect (cheers and laughter) and I trust aLna .1 _s.n,n.. that in‘ nbmitfing s§cli i’oriticlnms, as in tho inure!“ of the country every M. A . .. . . . . . A mun. AUTIOIHY. SIB B. OBTWIIGH‘I"! ll'l‘IllA'i‘ll. Sir nlohard Cartwright, in 1874, in his budget speech, said :â€"“In order rightly to under~ ‘ stand the extent of the burden w: , would be required to take upon ourselves to the construction of the Canadian Pacific Rail- way, it must be remembered that the lowest estimate for building this road to the Pacifi< is'something over $100,000,000, and this, toc on the supposition that a very much longe time would] be given for construction. Now Mr. Chairman, I spoke before recess of thc expense arising from the working of the In tercolonial Railway and other railways of thq Dominion, chiefly in the Maritime Provinces The deficiencies resulting from these sources amount to the extraordinary sum of about $1,260,000. I desire to call the special atten- tion of the House toa fact which must be clear to every hon. gentleman that these railways run for the most part through a country which has been settled for the last 50 or 60 years. I cannot refer, of course, to the met that these railways entail such an enormous expendi- ture without its becoming apparent to the House that the cost or maintaining a railway nearly 3,000 miles in length, passing through a country almost entirely uninhabited, must 3 of necessity- be very much greater. For a long time after the construction of the rail- way an enormous charge must be entailed to keep the line in full working order and good repair, and this fact must be steadily kept. sight of in considering the real character of theipzoject." I trust I have given to the House suflicient evidence to show not only that the proposition which we have the honor to submit for the approval of Parliament is one entitledto their favorable consideration, not only that it is gLeatly within the amount voted by this House in 1873, a“, ‘ subsequently in 1874, for the constructio Y the Canadian'Pacific Railway, but that _. is a contract based upon figures low as compared with those which these hon. gentlemen opposite after all the experience thstgthey had M ii connection; I am thankful for small flavors, and I am willing to take the credit or dis- credit of having stated frankly to the House that my idea was not to obtain a first class railway, but the cheapest description of road that would answer for colonization purposes. I have given the House the estimate of the two hon. gentlemen, and I should be wanting very much in my duty to the House if I did not show them that that hon. gentleman himself did not regard the construction of the Canada Pacific Railway as no very light matter, and held very much the views and opinions of his two hon. colleagues. $100,000 for the Selkirk bridge, and $300,- 000 for engineering on 1,946 miles, $89,002,- 000.” Now, there is his opinion. {have shown the opinion of the hon. leader of the Opposition that this work, for which we have shown this contract asks Parliament to place at our disposal $25,000,000, according to the estimate of the leader of the Opposi- tion a year ago was to cost $120,000,000, and according to the estimate, the more na- ture and reduced‘estimate of hon. gentleman best qualified to judge on that side ‘of the House, was to cost this country $89,002,000 in cash. There was no question of land. We were dealing with the lower estimate of the cost in cash taken out of the treasury of 0a- nada, and the estimate of the hon. leader of the Opposition was in round numbers 390,- 000,000. But I am wrong. I am doing the hon. gentleman a great injustice. The case is a great deal stronger. I am not able .to show. there is a diversity of opinion between the hon. gentlemen. I find that they worked it pretty nearly to the same .figure. I was leav- ing out that section north of Lake Superior, but the hon. member from Lambton brings that in and shows that west of Lake Superior from Thunder Bay to the Pacific the lowest that we could build it for was 389,-, 000,000 in cash. Let us see what he says about the railway to the head of Lake Superior :â€"-“ While from Fort William to Nipissing, 650 miles, estimating the cost at $50,000 per mile, would make it $32,500,000, or atotal of $121,700,000." So that these gentlemen are not open tothe challenge that on a great public ques- tion their estimates differ, after care- ful consideration, weighing well the responsibility of placing before . the House statements that were cautious, judi- cious and safe, upon which the people of {this country could safely base their esti- mates, both of these gentlemen agreed a year ago to build the Canada Pacific Railâ€" way with money borrowed for the purpose and expended in cash ; the correct estimate that this railwayfrom Lake Nipissing to Port Moody, Burmrd-l-nletmou-ldrbe accom- plished for was $120,000,0000 to $121,700,-‘ 000. The hon. gentleman continued: “ It will be observed, if we apply the figures as I apply them, that is calculating the expen- diture east of Red River between Lake Superior End Selkirk, that it would be im’ possible to obtain the same character of road as to gradients and curvature for less than I have estimated. .. I am sure I am within the line in stating these figures, and that it would be impossible to construct anything that could be called a railway, anything better than a tramway for less.” That amount was $84,000,000, and yet it was only to be a tramway, and the only possible means of getting a line that could be called a railway was by an expenditure of $121,000,000. He continues :â€"-“ The hon. Minister of Railways thinks it matters little what grades we have west of Winnipeg. He thinks it will suffice for trafic. I observe that the chief engineer, with his usual caution, does not speak of it as the Canadian Pacific Railway at all ; he speaks of it as a colonization road, and it is only that. The hon. Minister of Railways who is entitled to the credit or discredit of this plan of degrading the railway into a track that will not be fit for heavy tremc.” Sir CHAS. Townâ€"All 1 can lay in, that I took the estimate ot the engineer. chuging what was fairly chargeable to that road-â€" buildings in connection with its operationâ€"- and the amount of the Pembina branch We! therefore placed at $1,750,000. W. now reduce that by $250,000, bee-nee, u I say, the expenditure we would heve had to make immedietely in connec- tion givith the work now devolve- upon the syndicate under the contact. But the House will see that, awarding to the estimate which I laid on the table lat year and which the hon. gentlemen thought altogether below the mark, the Pei-him branch, 8. prairie line from end to end, with no very heavy bridging, wording to my own estimate last year wee over $20,000 e mile, but when it in handed over to the Syndicate, $17,270 a mile. The hon. gentle- man continued :â€"“ Thil would make the entire cost of the reed west of Lake Superior, including $1,440,- 000 for the Called: Central sublidy, ‘mile; and seventy miles very moderate, at $25,000, with ninety-eight miles of light work at $20,000 per mile, which makes for this section altogether an average of $27,000 per mile."D, The hon. gentleman said we have constructed the line from Pembina to Sel- kirk, 85 miles. This is a prairie, and a most favorable region, and he stated that the amount I submitted on estimate last year was $1,750,000 for the Pembim branch, but that included more than my estimate now includes for the Pembina branch, and for the reason, as hon. gentlemen will see, the heavy expenditure charged to that branch for workshops, rolling stock, etc., will now devolve upon the company, and consequently now reduce the estimate to $1,500,000. ' Hod. Mr. MAonxlnâ€"Givo II : detdl of the reductions. «an»: I may say that I have been greatly gratified at the criticisms that have been bestowed upon the proposition we are submitting to Parliament. Nothing has given more confi- dence in the soundness of our posi. tion and the impregnable attitude we occupy in Parliament, or out of it, than the criticisms to which this scheme has been subjected by the press, so far as I have seen. First I may speak of the Ottawa our. son. I find that in the criticisms of that paper, to which, at all events, we were entir tied to look for a fair and dispassionate criti- cism, the editor of that paper has evidently handed over his editorial columns not only to a hostile hand, b to a disingenqu writer, who was not wil ng to put teats fairly before the country, and this strengthens the in my conviction of the soundness of the proposition we are submitting to Parliament. If that contract contained objectionable fea- tures'to which the attention of Parliament might be called, and that were suflicielt to condemn it, who're was the necessity of the. person who wrote the criticism in the (Minn, for mistating every clause of the contract that he commented upon, from beginning to end? I say nothing has more strengthened my conviction of the soundness of this mea- sure, whether it was the Ottawa 0am», from which I had hoped better things, or from the Free Press, from which I did not expect any diferent treatment, or the Globe newspaper of Toronto; and when I take up these papers and find that in every criticism every single ground of attack is based upon mistatements ofwhat thl contract contains, I am confirmed in my opinion that they found that contract unimpeachable, and that a fair and candid criticism would com- pel them to give their adhesion to it. When 1 look at those criticisms I am reminded of the position a gentleman would occupy who had made a contract for construction of the Great Eastern 88., greater in extent and in- ‘ volving a greater expenditure than any other ship that ever was built in the world. But, sir, I am reminded of what would be the better-[position of ,a man who, after building a ship and finishing it complete in every re- spect, would be told by his employers that the ship was all right in design, material and workmanship, but that there was a little twist in the jolly boat which they did not like, and on that account they did not think they would tackle her. I say, that when we come down to Parliament with a great mess sure like this, when we occupy a position in respect to the probable completion of this great work, which twelve months ago the most sanguine man in the country could not have hoped we would occupy, these hon. gentleman hesitate. They say, although you have found gentlemen with great resources at their command, to go forward with an en- terprise so essential to the progress of Cana- (is, although the work is to be completed on apurely commercial basis, these gentlemen, hiring their hacks as they have been obliged to do u 11 their own declarations again an M“ lured; still complain of “935W“. Row, I an bound to say I never feltI more grateful to Parliament in my life than when, notwithstanding the startling statements made by these hon. gentlemen, this House placed 100,000,000 acres at the dis- posal of this Government for the pur- pose of constructing the Canadian Pacific Railway. I knew that every intelligent gentleman in the House and out of it regard- edthat measure as of vital importance to the country; I know they felt it was a duty we owedto the country to get along with this great work, notwitstanding the enor- mous liability involved, and notwithstand- ing the enormous demands made upon the Treasury of the wuntry; I knew that, obliged as we were to some extent to act upon the best judgmentwe could form, but to act experimentally, I knew it was a great demand to make upon Parliament for the Government to ask, for powers to proceed with this great work, but we felt that,‘ inas- much asthe construction of this road was required to develop the great Northwest, in- asmuch as it was absolutely necessary to make that country what it could be made and to increase the population and resources of the whole Dominion, that we were warrant- ed in acting upon the poflcy that lands otherwise useless should e utilized for the purpose of conetructio . The House can understand that we felt fully the re- sponsibility of asking for this enormous amount of public money to be expended, but feeling as we did that when we had construct- ; ed the work from end to end and were really to operate it, the still heavier responsibility rested upon the country of providing the ‘ means of successfully operatingthat road, for no man could shut out of sight the serious 1 responsibility that the operation of 3,000 miles of railway through such a country ‘ would entail. Int Parliament felt that the construction of this road was absolutely necessary to the development of Canada, and they generously gave to the Government the assistance we asked for. But they did it under the conviction that we intended to apply those lands in such a way as would ultimately secure the people of the older provinces against taxation for the purpose of constructing the railway. The Government were sensible of this gener- ous feeling on the part 01 their supporters in this House in sustaining us, notwithstand- ing the fear and the alarm that it was sought to' create in this House by hon. gentlemen opposite, when they found themselves in a position to criticise the very measure for which they had asked the House to give them the power of carrying itthrough. I say the House can understand the pleasure with which we meet the people of Canada through their representatives to-night, and are on- abled to say to them that by the mean‘s which we were authorised to use for the con- struction of this work, that we are in a po- sition to state not only that the entire con- struction from end to end, but that the re- 'sponsibility of operating it hereafter is to be taken off the shoulders of the Canadian Gov- ernment, '- in consideration of some- thing like the cost to the country of $2,000,000 per annum, not commencing now, however, but that will be the ultimate cost, assuming that we have t9 pay for over interest on all the money the syndi- cate will obtain under this contract. When we are in a position not only to show that, but to show that out of the 100,000,000 acres of land that Parliament placed two years ago at our disposal, we have 76,000,000 acres left with which to meet the $2,000,000 of expendi- ture, and that expenditure will be diminished until at no distant day we will not only have the proud satisfaction of seeing Canada as- sume an advanced and triumphant position, but that she will be relieved from the expen- diture of a single dollar in connection with the construction or operation of this railway. ,withthie great work, regarded as altogether insufficient for its construction, without re- ference to the provision of a single dol- lar for the purpose of security of the operation of the road afterwards. I trtut I have given to the Rouse nutrient evidence to show not only that the propane! which I have the honor to submit to Parlia- ment is fitted to their iavoreble consideration, not only that it is greatly within the amount voted by this House in 1873 and subsequent- ly in 1874 for the construction of the Can-- dian Pacific Railway, but that it in a contract based upon figures which, compared with those which hen. gentlemen opposite nfter alltheir experience in connection with this work regnrded an altogether inauficient for its construction, are far more favorable to this country. ITBINGTIIHID I! OBITIOIIK. A mom “Iron-mm. precisely such work will d been secur- ed in order to make th s a successful contract, and I would ask non. gentlemen opposite what more is desirable or necessary. I have ‘reierred to the position that those gentlemen occupy, but I would just ask hon. gentlemen opposite whether Canada would likely have this contract carried out with the success we all desire. expect and hope for, if we had made the contract with the strongest body of capitalists that could be found in the city of London? What would you. have had? We would have had as‘the first thing an English enginneer with extravagant ideas, totally ignorant of the work and construc- tion of railways through such a country, and wethvefiMdefifio W anxious to transfer from our shoulders to theirs; and I would ask this House whether 1 they think this contract involving the ‘great business and importance that it does. is one to sit down and cavil over in the or- dinary acceptation of the term in relation to contracts, and to drive the most difiicult bargain that could be driven, and perhaps lead to what occurred when we made the contract in 1878, with terms largely in excess of those that this contract contains. But it was , not a contract that was capable of fulfilment, because the parties were unable in the then conditions of this country to raise the capital that was neces- sary. Now we approach this question in this spirit, and would ask every member of this House if we should not be unworthy of re- presenting the Parliament of Canada in the discharge of the public business if we had not felt in the interests of Canada that this arrangement should be one that would obtain the command of the capital that was requir- 1 ed, and that would enable the parties engag-l ed in this great work to make it thoroughly ; successful, asI trust it will be. - We have reason to know that all that a command of capital can do they have the advantage of, and have reason to know that- all that skill and energy and a _knowledge of With regard to the tern: of the contract, I do not hoeitete to toy that no greater injury could hove been inflicted on the people of Camd- then to hove node the condition: of the engagement l0 onerous thet instead of ensuring their enocelefnl fulfilment, they would hove led to teilnro. I soy thet the monontthet contract il lined everything thet men on do for the purpose of obtaining the belt tern- in thoir power he: been done, elweyl under the impreuion thet we owed it to Conndn to nuke o contmt thot was capable of fulfilment, to give those gen- tlenone feir contract, end oflord them e fair opportunity of grappling with thin greet, this. gigantic enterpriee, that we were no Hon. Hr. Bunâ€"I do not quit. Index-thud the hon. gentleman. Sir Gnu-I Turn â€" I my flat that Company embrace: «pit-Illi- both of our own and of other countriol who no men of tho highut ohnmctot, men whose names or. tho but montag- thnt could be worded tho pooplo of Cumin that any enterprise they my udorhko will In nccollfnl. The gentlemen who have undertaken this work stand before the people of this country to-day in the strong- est position that it is possible for gentlemen to occupy in relation to a great enterprise such as this. The Canadians en- gaged in the enterprise are men who are second to none in respect of commercial standing and capacity, and by their success in carrying out their great railway enterprises, they have aflorded us the best possible guarantee for the manner in which they will fulfil their engagements with the Govern- ment and the Parliament of Canada. I may be told that the owners of the St. Paul, Min- neapolis & Manitoba Railway are members of this syndicate, and, sir, I am proud to know that that is the fact, and for this reason :â€"I say that standing outside of this association, they were in aposition of antagonism to Canada, because they were the owners of a line of railway to the south of the Great 3 Northwest and of large tracts of fertile land contiguous to that railway. We all know that the great barrier. to the successful de-, velopment of the Northwest was that in the absence of a Canadian Pacific Railway our ‘ immigration was obliged to filter through the 1 territories of the United States, and the great efi'orts which have been made tosecure immigration into the U. 8., and intercept those who were on the way to our North- west have not been made by the Government of that country or by the legislature of the States, but by the railway companies, who haveapersonal interest in bringing these immigrants into their own territories. Why, sir, we have annexed a large portion of the State of Minnesota to Canada in this way, and any man with a head on his shoulders will see at once that a Company who have engaged to build and operate a read 650 miles from Thunder Bay to Nipissing, and who are to be the, owners of one thousand miles of road from Red River to Nipissing, cannot afl’ord to do ything less than at- tract along that rou e and from the railways to the south a volume of immigration to settle the lands, for that alone can make their enterprise successful. The interest which these gentlemen will have in the Canada Pacific Railway will be ten fold greater than - any interest they ever had in the St. Paul, Minneapolis & Manitoba, and I care not what their nation- ality may be as the signatories of that con- tract, Canada possesses in the- the most undoubted evidence that they will spare no start to secure traflc on the Canadian Pacific Railway. The hon. gentlemen seemed to think that this company would notbear the scrutiny and investigation which was desir- able. Hon. Mr. [suntanâ€"Who said so 1 Sir Gus. Turrssâ€"I hope I did not do the leader of the Opposition an injustice when I thought that my mention of the company was received by him in the way in which he usually réce'ives a sentiinent with which he does notagree. Sir Gus. Turnâ€"Well, perhaps the am- sen is now the organ of the hon. gentlemen opposite. I know that within the short space of 24 hours they were able to teke the Time: out of our hands by some meansâ€"a “pullman device,” I believe, they celled it; but, sir, I do not feel surprised that hon. gentlemen reject with scorn the imputation that the Free Fun is their organ or speaks their sentimentsâ€"s journAl that attempts to throw obloquy upon gentle- men of the highest standing in Canada. and ‘in the British Empire. Hon. gentlemen do not like the Company, but one would sup- pose thet their idens had undergone revul- sion upon that question. ment which hspp ily we hsve been enebled to place before Parliunent. But for the remarks of hon. gentlemen opposite which have led me to believe to the contrary, I 'should have thought that this was s meas- ure tor which I could here confidently asked the support not only of those who usually support the Government, but of hon. gentle- men opposite, who stood committed by their *tes end by the strongest possible ystete- nts of their leaders to the support of terms for the contraction of this work much less feversble then those embodied in the present contract. “But," say these hon. gentlemen, “we don’t like the Compsny"â€"a remark most libellous and insulting to the gentlemen who compose the syndicate. Hon. Mr. Msonumâ€"Who said so ? Sir Cine Turpinâ€"The organ of the lien. gentlemen in this city. now I'll 00'7“" m n OOIIIDIIID. _ Hon. Mr. [auxinâ€"Do you man the akin»! I'll mm 0" TE! SYNDICATI. which nave been urged against tn. proposition. I am told that the stas» In! in too low, that the stand;~ ofthe Union Pacific Railway is a Very m favorable standard, and that we ought I have selected something higher. Well, it ..~ very well, after hiking obtained the oppmw tunity of making a contract, to make sevm e stipulations, but when I have stated to the House the terms under which these gentle- men have undertaken to construct this road, I think you will agree with me that they were entitledto as favorable consideration as we could giveithem. I should like to know whatposition the Government of Canada'would have been in who, after hav- ing oflered $84,000,000 in 1873 to the com- pany of which Sir Hugh Allan was the pre- sident should ask the gentlemen who were undertaking to do the some work for $78,000,000, to make the term 5 more onerous than those of the preview confirm; if my horn gentlemen Sir Gnu. Tennâ€"It is 1,006 miles fro. Nipissing along Thunder Bay to Winnipeg if you take the lake, or 1,057 miles by rail, the distance from Callender Station to Linkoping, the nation where the line will strike the Thun- der Bay branch, being 686 miles, and that from Linkoping‘ to Winnipeg being 371 rifles; so that the House will see We have the shortest possible line by which to reach Winnipeg. It will also see that the distance from Montreal to Callendar Station' is 354 miles, while the distance from Toronto by the Gravenhurst line is 226 miles, or 12>- miles less than that from Montreal I mm now advert for e moment to . Sir Omnss Turnsâ€"O! course we are . speaking within a certain latitude, and I would ask the hon. gentleman to turn his at. tention to what was a similar work construc- ted on this continentâ€"the Union Pacific Railway, and I would ask him whether the capital of that company was larger, or whe- ther the security given by them tor the con- struction of the road was larger than is now obtained with this company. He may ex- amine into the carrying out of any of those great works, and he will find that the secur- ity that the Government had was con- fidence in the parties engaged in the projects that they would carry them out to completion. The hon. gentleman will find that under this arrangement we have the best guarantee that these works will be pushed rapidly to completion under the contract as now proposed. This contract re- quires the parties to complete the road in ten years, that in July, 1891, it shall be carried to completion, and I may say, sir, although the hon. leader of the Opposition may have forgotten it, he took th liberty a year ago of expressing his opinio and to a certain extent, I suppose, his empathy with the deplorable condition in which the mem- bers from the Province of Quebec found them. selves. The hon. gentle an said that ‘- Qua. bec had spent $11,000, which she could ill-afl'ord for the construction of a provincial railway, principally for the purpose of tapping the Pacific trade. #91 m rsonrs T0 TII OLD“ PROVINOEB. Quebec had stretched out her arms toward the great West as far as this city for the purpose of securing that trade, and the question is how soon that expenditure is to be made available. Her road is paying as it is. What Quebec ex- pected was that it should pay some fraction or interest on its construction, but they also expected it would hear a great tide of Wes- tern traflic into her principal cities, and bring prosperity to her people, but unless some through connection is made, these expecta- tions on the part of Quebec would not be realised, that if the eastern end was not constructed till the western end was finish- ed, he hoped they would all be alive to enjoy the results.” I will not say that there was any sarcasm in these remarks; I will not say that the hon. gentleman was not shedding tears ofs‘ympathy when he was bemoaning the ppy fate of Quebec, but where are N ova cotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and where is the Province of Ontario 7 Why, they stand in a position to-day that a year ago we would have been laughed at if we had ventured to predict. If we had' said a year ago that by this session we would be enabled to provide a contract by which in 1891 all theoities of these provinces would have easy communication with the great Northwest territories of Canada, it would have been considered impossible of attain, ment. What is of more vital importance to this province and the cities of the East, Quebec, St. John and Halifax, than that they should have ready access to the great N orth. west? The {not is that that great country, with its millions of fertile acres, that yield abundant returns to the industry of agriculq turists, must {or years tocome, during the development of that vast territory, depend upon the older provinces for its manufac- tures. Therefore it is of vital importance to every section of Canada, and to no portion more than the Northwest, that there should be easy, rapid and cheap communication established at an early day. New, sir, I will draw the attention of the House for a moment to what will be accom- plished. The road is to be commenced on the 1st oi July next at Callendar station, near Lake Nipissing, and under this contract is to he proceeded with pari poem at such an annual rate of progress as will secure through connection with the Canadian Pacifig Rud- way by 1891. Now, with regard to the dis- tance, everybody knows that the construc- tion of this line will shorten the distance between all our great cities and Winnipeg, the present emporium of the Northwest, by some 600 miles, but assuming that we had to go by the Sault Ste. Marie in the absence of any line at the north of Lake Superior, the distance bv the Sault and Duluth would be, from Nipissiug to Sault Ste. Marie 294 miles, from Sault Ste. Marie to Duluth 410 miles, and from Duluth sic Emerson to Winnipeg 464 miles, making the total distance from Callendar Station to Winnipeg 1,168 miles. That was the short- est route which twelve months ago the Gov- ernment were able to hold out any expecta- tion of obtaining. Now, we propose to secure the construction of a through line, to be com. menced on the 1st of July next, which will shorten that distance by 111 miles. Hon. Mr. Bunâ€"That is 1,057 miles from Winnipeg to Southelst Buy. what their resources might be, 3 perfect fail are in their hands ; and worse than that, you would have had discredit brought upon the country in consequence of the parties who had purchssed their bonds falling to obtain that interest which they justly expected from their investment. Whether you look at the Am e- ricen, the Canadian or at the English, French or German gentlemen nesociated with tlm enterprise, I believe thnt Canada has been most fortunate in having this Work placed h. their hnnds. It le stated that the security of $1,000,000 for the oer-tying out of the con- trect il too emll. They say that a paid-u p cepitel of $5,000,000 within two years and a deposit of $5,000,000 in too small. My opinion of Ioourlty is this, thet provided you get the pertlee who are moat likely to deal success- fully with the matter, the lens security you demand the better, becenle jult in propor- tion I: you back up the resources of the perty, the more you decrease hie power to may on this work elcoelefully. ‘ H'on. Mr. Bunâ€"In order 50 improve the situation, lot In strike out the clause about tho million dollu‘l. Ion 0, m OBJIOTIONI m IIGUIII‘Y OBTAINED.